Pontife hands pocket watch with 37.5T1

Ooom · Apr 17, 2023

I bought some times ago this pocket watch, mainly for the pontife hands. Initially I thought it wouldn’t be a problem to find/make a correct pendant. But the more I seek on internet the more I wonder what’s original there...

First, what looks like original. The movement (ref. 9307265) is a 37.5T1 with 15 jewels and côtes de Genève who has seen heavy cleaning, though still running but at a quite low amplitude.

It’s cased in a quite simple rim, locked by the glass on one side (and coming out that way) and the back on the other side. That lock looks like it’s from Omega (“Staybrite, Fab. Suisse, ref. 9610433”), with a common geometric pattern on the outside.

Second what I think is a bit strange. The glass has a typical flatted top that I relate to glass (the matter) but I may be wrong (if not I’m thinking it doesn’t fit a watch from 30s...40s, does it?). When assembled the edge of the whole looks like a cylinder made of four equivalent plates. While the base of the pendant reuses the same aesthetic code (so I guess it follows the case), the ring of the pendant and the crown are probably refurbished.
The dial seems legit but the hands look like they’re too long for that dial.

Looking for image of original crown/pendant I haven’t been able to find a similar case. I found exact same dial/hands in the same proportions and colors but only on wristwatches.

I intended to put it back to an original state so I’m wondering if experts here had seen similar combinations and eventually how it should look like?

JimInOz · Apr 17, 2023

I suspect it's a locally made case due to the "Importe de Suisse" on the dial.
Have you a picture of the inside caseback?

Maybe @OMTOM has seen something like this?

JimInOz · Apr 17, 2023

Omega AJTT has a couple of 37.5s with similar dial layouts.

Ooom · Apr 17, 2023

Thanks for your documents! It confirms why I became suspicious, all the roman dials I’ve seen have smaller numbers and the case edge is plain.
Here is a picture of the inside of the back lock:

Tire-comedon · Apr 17, 2023

I’ve already seen this case design, need to go through my documentation. I’ll post more this evening if I can find something.

Zapatta · Apr 17, 2023

My potnife says hi 😁

Canuck · Apr 17, 2023

The glass in your watch is very old. Possibly 18th century, or even earlier, They are usually called a “bulls eye” or “punty” crystal, (pontil, in French). The bull’s eye is the result of how these glasses were formed, way back when.

OMTOM · Apr 17, 2023

Thank you Jim for the link.

The 1930s were a heyday of design for watch manufacturers – and the range of Omega pocket watches from that period is an example. The designers must have felt very happy! Such a wide range of cases, stems and crowns and bows, dials, hands – and caseback décors. The 37.5 was a good example – but there were of course other calibres at the same time.

An example of the stems and bows of Omega’s 37.5s:

A wide range of these ‘geometric’ casebacks was produced, each décor with a name, such as follows:
Rémi, Raphael, Philippe, Pallas, Raoul, Roger, Cubique, Martin, Clément, Maurice.

The above is only background. Turning now to this particular example.
Firstly I would expect the case, dial and movement to be original. It is quite a late example – at least 1939, maybe later. The markings inside the caseback are original Omega – and there would be a good chance of obtaining an Extract of the Archives (if the OP desired).

I show a watch with Pontife hands. I agree that the proportions (lengths of hands) are slightly different:

The OP watch has another caseback décor – but not one of those I have listed: sorry but I don’t recognise it.

I am not familiar with the ‘ribbed’ style of the case – but because of the wide range of adventurous styles used, it would not be a surprise to see it fitting into this range. And as the OP suggests, the ribbed style of the pendant fits the ribbed case.

I agree with the OP that the bow and crown are probably not original.

Regarding the crystal (glass), it is difficult to assess from the image we are shown. A bowed, bevelled crystal would not be a surprise on a watch like this (they existed on Omega pocket watches from 40 years earlier!). However, this particular crystal looks as though it is more than a gentle bow – and therefore probably a replacement, for some reason hi-dome.

Modest_Proposal · Apr 17, 2023

I agree that the bow and crown are likely replacements. As for the crystal, I've owned several watches from the time period with concave crystals. In fact, I made a thread about it some years ago to tap the collective wisdom of the forum:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/question-about-concave-crystals.64991/#post-815487

Here is an Omega I have with that type of crystal, as well as one with a similar caseback:

Here are a few more:

Tire-comedon · Apr 17, 2023

Found it! In a 1939 English catalog :

The Omega factory made case seems confirmed and you can see what the original bow and crown looked like. The bow is quite typical for the period. From what I can see the dial could be also in original condition and not repainted (I would need to see it in the metal to give a better opinion) but you're right, the hands length doesn't match it, so at least one of them is a replacement.

Unfortunately this catalog doesn't show the Omega ref (CKXXX) but the distributor ref so I can't identify the model.

Modest_Proposal · Apr 17, 2023

Tire-comedon
Found it! In a 1939 English catalog :

The Omega factory made case seems confirmed and you can see what the original bow and crown looked like. The bow is quite typical for the period. From what I can see the dial could be also in original condition and not repainted (I would need to see it in the metal to give a better opinion) but you're right, the hands length doesn't match it, so at least one of them is a replacement.

Unfortunately this catalog doesn't show the Omega ref (CKXXX) but the distributor ref so I can't identify the model.

Good spot! It just so happens that I owned this exact reference:

Tire-comedon · Apr 17, 2023

Modest_Proposal
Good spot! It just so happens that I owned this exact reference:

Perfect match with the catalog!

Ooom · Apr 18, 2023

I’m thoroughly impressed by the knowledge flow and its rapidity, thanks everybody! The pictures will be particularly helpful.

So the case is Omega from ~1940, with eventually a replacement pontil (fits pontife that) glass that can still be period correct (but apparently we don’t really know why it was used so late).

Now I guess odds to find correct crown and ring are quite small but they seem to have at least a simple form. It should be possible to machine the ring but I’m wondering how I will fasten it afterwards... The crown I don’t really know if such tall version can be found again on catalogue and with a fitting stem? (I was unsuccessful on c..ins.uk).

Hand and dial style match though with slightly too long hands. I can live with that. Eventually it shouldn’t be difficult to snap a short bit of the minute and second hands… The dial is in a pretty good condition, just a small scratch near the centre at 7. It doesn’t appear on the poor pictures but it looks genuine in colour and texture.

Some work on it but first I’ve to train to clean/oil movement (not stating with that one!).

OllieOnTheRocks · Apr 18, 2023

Tire-comedon
Found it! In a 1939 English catalog :

The Omega factory made case seems confirmed and you can see what the original bow and crown looked like. The bow is quite typical for the period. From what I can see the dial could be also in original condition and not repainted (I would need to see it in the metal to give a better opinion) but you're right, the hands length doesn't match it, so at least one of them is a replacement.

Unfortunately this catalog doesn't show the Omega ref (CKXXX) but the distributor ref so I can't identify the model.

I used to own this reference, it was a 1938 CK1062 - it has the same ribbed case (pic below of my one).

I agree your minute hand is too long but the other two are correct as is the dial - If it were me i'd just snip it to end just on the outer edge of the minute track and leave the other hands as are.

I've also found this identical reference to mine also CK1062 which better shows the case yours has: https://www.ricardo.ch/fr/a/rare-1939-omega-pocket-watch-*sector*!-1197154804/

Ooom · Apr 18, 2023

OllieOnTheRocks
I've also found this identical reference to mine also CK1062 which better shows the case yours has: https://www.ricardo.ch/fr/a/rare-1939-omega-pocket-watch-*sector*!-1197154804/

Nice, it shows how to fasten the ring!

Modest_Proposal · Apr 18, 2023

O Ooom
...with eventually a replacement pontil (fits pontife that) glass that can still be period correct (but apparently we don’t really know why it was used so late).

Not so fast! If you read the thread I post above, there was no consensus on the function of "bulls eye" crystals, or even how late in the century they were manufactured. You can try to revive that thread by posting your watch there if you want more opinions.

As for the hands... if the minute hand were only a fraction smaller, I think everyone here would assume they were original. As you can see from the other examples posted on this thread, your hands look identical, down to the proportions, of other Omega hands of this type. What does that mean? Perhaps that Omega or an independent watchmaker with access to Omega parts replaced the hands during a service. Or perhaps the hands are original. Not everything was perfect in the late 1930's / early 1940's manufacturing process. Hands didn't always match up perfectly with tracks, ink sometimes bled into subdials, etc... Though I admit the minute hand does extend pretty far off the track. It could be that only the minute hand is a well-matched replacement.

Feel free to snip off part of the hands - but be aware that they are at worst probably Omega-made (or that just the minute hand has been replaced) and at best original from sale. The seconds hand is probably original regardless.

Below is a watch I own with the same hands. As you can see, the minute hand does not perfectly align with the top or bottom of the minute track.

Tony C. · Apr 18, 2023

I can't recall having previously enjoyed so much Pontife-cating...😁

Ooom · Apr 18, 2023

Modest_Proposal
Not so fast! If you read the thread I post above, there was no consensus on the function of "bulls eye" crystals, or even how late in the century they were manufactured. You can try to revive that thread by posting your watch there if you want more opinions.

That was what I understood. Just out of curiosity, are these bulls eyes all the time made out of glass? Or could it be sometimes plexi with a “fake” pontil? Initially I thought the plast had smelted there due to someone placing the watch upside down in the sun...

Modest_Proposal
Though I admit the minute hand does extend pretty far off the track. It could be that only the minute hand is a well-matched replacement.

Agree with you here.

Modest_Proposal
'
Below is a watch I own with the same hands. As you can see, the minute hand does not perfectly align with the top or bottom of the minute track.

Nice exemplar! We should maybe exchange hands or dial 😁. As I said I can accept slightly longer hands, I think crown and bow are far more disturbing.

Modest_Proposal · Apr 18, 2023

O Ooom
That was what I understood. Just out of curiosity, are these bulls eyes all the time made out of glass? Or could it be sometimes plexi with a “fake” pontil? Initially I thought the plast had smelted there due to someone placing the watch upside down in the sun...

Oh, I thought you were saying you thought the crystal must be a replacement. The examples I've touched have all been glass, as far as I remember.

I remember the first time I saw one, I thought the top of the crystal must have been shaved off by request on an owner!

Canuck · Apr 18, 2023

Pontil crystals, the subject of, often brings contrary opinions as the the reason for the”bull’s eye.” Not to provoke rancour among those with differing opinions, it is my understanding that these glasses were hand- made by forming the disc on the end of a glass “stem”, the stem being removed after the glass cooled, then the bull’s eye polished. I have never seen these made of anything but glass.

Pontife hands pocket watch with 37.5T1

Ooom

JimInOz

JimInOz

Ooom

Tire-comedon

Zapatta

Canuck

OMTOM

Modest_Proposal

Tire-comedon

Modest_Proposal

Tire-comedon

Ooom

OllieOnTheRocks

Ooom

Modest_Proposal

Tony C.

Ooom

Modest_Proposal

Canuck

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