"Polishing" a Speedmaster case - insert horrified expression here...

photo500 · Oct 5, 2015

JohnSteed
Great work Adam. Seems a fabulous and faithful attention to the details 👍

Thanks Spencer, I try my best always 😀

photo500 · Oct 5, 2015

Darlinboy
Excellent craftsmanship! Purists care, but the vast majority of them can't tell anyway.

I once thrashed a nice Rolex case before selling so I could get a premium for "unpolished" condition.

Am I kidding? As with cases, most can't tell.

Haha, the truth will never come out about your Rolex [emoji33] but hey it's true that the market produces vintage to the current taste.

photo500 · Oct 5, 2015

Archer
Bingo. A perfectly refinished case with imperfectly aged dial and hands doesn't look any better to me than a beat up case with a new dial and hands. It all has to go well together as a package.

Of course it is - as I've said here many times before, if the finish can be created when the watch was new, it can be recreated again in the future. I think that is simple logic. But people generally equate "refinishing" to the crap work they see day in and day out on watches that someone leaned against a buffing wheel for a few minutes and called it "refinished."

But because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be. I could certainly make my own vintage Speedmaster look brand new, but why would I? I personally want my vintage watches to look like they are vintage. If I wanted a new looking watch, I would have bought a new watch. I personally want the history to be there - not erased. Unlike swapping for a new dial and hand set where the old parts can be put back on, refinishing is a permanent and irreversible step. In that way it is sort of equivalent to refinishing a dial - it can't be undone.

And watches are certainly not unique in the desire to maintain original finish - many areas of antiques share this same notion, so this is not as strange as some make it out to be.

In the end it's a personal choice to have this done or not, but it's something that should be considered carefully before being done.

Cheers, Al

Yes agreed Al it is personal choice and just because it's possible doesn't always mean it's the right thing to do in every circumstance. I'm glad that you've pointed out in the past that factory finishes can be reapplied too.

Something worth remembering though is that once a case is done and worn again on the wrist it's going to pick up more marks anyway, it's isn't going to stay pristine unless it becomes a safe queen.

Patina can certainly be applied as well as some of the other contributors have pointed out. It's realism is down to the skill of the artist. History can be created....

photo500 · Oct 5, 2015

Spacefruit
Well my friends in HK no longer buy NOS submariners because they are refinishing the cases to NOS.
I saw some and they are unbelievable.
As has been said, the cases are filled and built up first, before being polished back to original specification dimensions and factory specification finish.
Suddenly the beat up look is at a premium, so now they refinish the cases and then boil them with gravel.....

Don't get me started on Daytonas.....in HK some dealers will not touch them at all because they cannot tell them apart from the fake cases, fake dials, you name it.

It's quite impressive what can be done in terms of restorations. It seems to me I'm not the only one doing this yet it's pretty hard to find others who are. Perhaps this shunning of this kind of work pushes people underground and they end up working for the dealers who have a lot riding on the condition of their vintage pieces. Being open and honest about this kind of work is always more preferable in my opinion [emoji106]

Where there's a market....people will fill it [emoji6]

PatrickJ · Oct 5, 2015

Geo!
Excellent work Adam, but the purists will still say it's sacrilege. I personally appreciate what you are doing, and would rather have a watch correctly re-finished. The only time I would strongly recommend leaving it original, is if it had some "real" history behind it.

Here's what was a beat up Seiko that I re-finished a few months back.

Refinishing if done as well as possible should be ok. You have to enjoy the dam thing as well. It can't be left in a beat up state.

Not perfect, but a lot better than what it was!

Archer · Oct 5, 2015

photo500
Patina can certainly be applied as well as some of the other contributors have pointed out. It's realism is down to the skill of the artist. History can be created....

This is one reason I have made a conscious choice not to do this sort of complete case restoration on vintage watches. I personally don't want to be a contributor to muddying the waters.

Cheers, Al

Maganator · Oct 5, 2015

An interesting discussion especially as I have taken ownership of a vintage MKII Speedmaster that looks like it has had a hard life.

I have no strong feelings either way and can see both sides of this. And the job done by the OP looks outstanding. Very impressive.

For those that are against refinishing (As done in the OP), does your position change if you own a new watch that gets damaged?

For example, if you just spend £5k on a new watch - took it home and scratched it along a wall by mistake. Would you have an issue with getting it put back into its original state immediately?

Spacefruit · Oct 5, 2015

A MkII with the the best will in the world will fetch $2500 in today's market.

A case refinish on this watch does make a spectacular difference, because there is a lot of case! However I do not think there is a financial incentive to refinish the case - only a pride of ownership one.

If a MkII was worth $50,000 it would be a different story. Dealers would feel pressure to refinish a case - and if that refinishing could be undetected, then what would stop them selling it as NOS? Only a highly developed moral compass. When I look at the number of NOS submariners and Daytonas on the market it is no wonder buyers have become leery.

With the modern watch, it's a simple decision. It will be 30/40 years before it will be considered for vintage appeal, and so restoring a scratched case will restore it to its full second hand value. Or, like the case of my brand new scratched alloy wheel, make me forget my carelessness, by having it polished away. (It too was built up first I believe).

As watches increase in value, like all other fixed supply assets, people will fake them. (Art, Diamonds, Gemstones, books).

I believe that under a microscope, I can spot micro welding spots even on polished cases - but as with all skills, as it gets better, detection will get harder.

BadAndy · Oct 5, 2015

This is a great thread, and one that I am really interested in. I have quite the dilemma myself, as I am going to be sending my first automatic watch back in for service soon. It is just a simple Breitling Colt, that I bought new in 2000. While not "vintage" yet, it was my daily wearer up until this summer when I bought my Seamaster 300 MC. It still gets worn once or twice a week. The first 2 services, the watch was "polished" back to like new state, although the lines are still quite sharp. However it is certainly past due for a movement service, and the nicks and mild scratches have added character to the watch. Plus I know that every nick or scratch is my nick or scratch, so like others have said it is like a history book.

I know it is not going to be very collectable in the future, but I don't ever plan on selling it. I am leaning toward just cleaning and servicing with no polishing.

Spacefruit · Oct 5, 2015

BadAndy
This is a great thread, and one that I am really interested in. I have quite the dilemma myself, as I am going to be sending my first automatic watch back in for service soon. It is just a simple Breitling Colt, that I bought new in 2000. While not "vintage" yet, it was my daily wearer up until this summer when I bought my Seamaster 300 MC. It still gets worn once or twice a week. The first 2 services, the watch was "polished" back to like new state, although the lines are still quite sharp. However it is certainly past due for a movement service, and the nicks and mild scratches have added character to the watch. Plus I know that every nick or scratch is my nick or scratch, so like others have said it is like a history book.

I know it is not going to be very collectable in the future, but I don't ever plan on selling it. I am leaning toward just cleaning and servicing with no polishing.

And I would agree with your thinking. Keep the look. You can always polish later.

Archer · Oct 5, 2015

Spacefruit
And I would agree with your thinking. Keep the look. You can always polish later.

Waiting is always a good option IMO - not for the movement service, but for the refinish.

VetPsychWars · Oct 5, 2015

Hm. The two Omega watches I currently own, I've bought new. (I think a WatchCo Seamaster 300 counts as "new".) Each service my Speedmaster has received, at least by Omega, the case has been refinished. I guess once you start, no reason not to keep going.
Fortunately I am not as rough with my watches as some of the pictures I've seen. Yikes!

Tom

PatrickJ · Oct 5, 2015

Not very clued up on refinishing. Is light polish ok as long as the case shape does not change?

Canuck · Oct 5, 2015

The sad part of all this in my view, is not that the case has been refinished, but that it was battered so badly that it looked like it did in the initial pictures. As a potential buyer, given the choice of two Speedmasters, one that was battered, about which you could tell for sure how it had been (ab)used, and the other one which looked like new and you weren't certain of its past, would you haul out your calipers with the intention in mind to see if the "blazer" had been polished? Had the battered one been offered for sale in its original state, would some folk jump on it because it was closer to "original" than the refinished one? I guess I'm showing some naïveté, but I wouldn't!

Mine, in the picture. Original? Refinished? Apollo 11 20th anniversary model from 1989.

Varnado · Oct 5, 2015

This is an interesting thread because I am a vintage rolex collector. All of the watches I have in my collection are unpolished and I have never and would never want to own one that has been refinished. For me to own one it has to be a certain way and I look for those types of watches for me to own. However, I do buy and sell them and there are many that are candidates for a refinish. I make that determination myself after close inspection of the case, the chamfer, if the case has been refinished before, the extent of the wear, etc.. In the case of the OP watch I would have 100% agreed with a case restoration. When the case has become rounded, the chamfer lines have disappeared or if the surface goes beyond normal wear and into deeper damage, that's when I make the call and do it. Many people may disagree with this type of work but, even though I always disclose a refinish it really isnt necessary because when you see a 1965 watch with razor sharp chamfers, perfect lug satin finish and no discernible nicks or dings, then you know what has been done..

photo500 · Oct 9, 2015

Varnado
This is an interesting thread because I am a vintage rolex collector. All of the watches I have in my collection are unpolished and I have never and would never want to own one that has been refinished. For me to own one it has to be a certain way and I look for those types of watches for me to own. However, I do buy and sell them and there are many that are candidates for a refinish. I make that determination myself after close inspection of the case, the chamfer, if the case has been refinished before, the extent of the wear, etc.. In the case of the OP watch I would have 100% agreed with a case restoration. When the case has become rounded, the chamfer lines have disappeared or if the surface goes beyond normal wear and into deeper damage, that's when I make the call and do it. Many people may disagree with this type of work but, even though I always disclose a refinish it really isnt necessary because when you see a 1965 watch with razor sharp chamfers, perfect lug satin finish and no discernible nicks or dings, then you know what has been done..

Indeed I agree with you on many points here, except for me of course I do not mind having refinished watches in my collection.

The key point is to always disclose what has been done to the watch and that would include refinishing, redialing or movement swaps where known. Describing a refinished piece as nos too is something I have a particular dislike for!

Varnado · Oct 9, 2015

Nothing wrong with having refinished watches in your collection. I have seen people with refinished examples better than the unpolished ones I own. It is just a personal preference and not a dig on refinished cases.

Canuck · Oct 9, 2015

Canuck

The sad part of all this in my view, is not that the case has been refinished, but that it was battered so badly that it looked like it did in the initial pictures. As a potential buyer, given the choice of two Speedmasters, one that was battered, about which you could tell for sure how it had been (ab)used, and the other one which looked like new and you weren't certain of its past, would you haul out your calipers with the intention in mind to see if the "blazer" had been polished? Had the battered one been offered for sale in its original state, would some folk jump on it because it was closer to "original" than the refinished one? I guess I'm showing some naïveté, but I wouldn't!

Mine, in the picture. Original? Refinished? Apollo 11 20th anniversary model from 1989.

Nobody going to bite on a comment as to the originality of my Speedmaster, from the appearance of it? Commemorative Apollo 11, 20th anniversary, I've had since 1991.

Time Exposure · Oct 9, 2015

Canuck
Nobody going to bite on a comment as to the originality of my Speedmaster, from the appearance of it? Commemorative Apollo 11, 20th anniversary, I've had since 1991.

Ship it to me for a complete inspection 😉

oak1971 · Oct 9, 2015

Some Joker polished the marker paint right off the bezel my JDM Speedy. Need to ask my watchmaker what to do.