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Phillips auction in Geneva.......

ConElPueblo
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I wouldn't at all be surprised if money laundering played a part here. The payouts when utilising casinos for money laundering (a traditional method) aren't particular high either and the act of laundering money carries great risks for the casino, which have to have anti-laundering mechanisms in place to begin with and act on any attempt to launder money or lose their license.

Remember also that a high purchasing price can justify high insurance evaluations leading to profitable insurance fraud.

jhross98 jhross98
I think what OF members don't get is how..literally irrelevant any watch is to a truly super rich person. 25mm and 100m paintings folks... The enitre auction today every single lot was less than 20mm usd

In the discussion of money laundering, unique assets such as works of art are far more difficult to move on and are more difficult to handle. Stainless steel Rolexes? The opposite.
 
jhross98
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i guess i'm back to square one. . unless we get an actual money launderer to post how they do it on OF we will all be a bit in the dark

that said.. these money laundering criminals must have lots of time on their hands. pre-registering for a live auction, giving bank details, then spending the time to LIVE bid on a 25k lot in a public forum all to launder. .25k

would seem like buying one of the 1000 available from grey market dealers many of whom will take credit cards would be a more effective use of time ???
 
jhross98
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eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
Guys like Pablo Escobar had more money than the Columbian government. They had so much money that they buried millions of dollars in notes, and forgot about it. So from that perspective it kinda makes sense...

Pablo Escobar didn't have reps showing up at auction houses to bid on art to launder his money did he lol


Fap fap fap fap ...
 
smitty190373
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I think conservatively the I.M.F estimate $1-2tn is laundered worldwide every year. Philipps X1 auction total sales was $31m.

If you take the low estimate (1tn) the entire auction total can be swallowed up another 30,000 times with some change. Look somewhere like online gaming where approx $450/500m changes hands every day, you're more likely to be bumping thumbs with money launderers on World of Warcraft !

I think rich people like watches, and don't really care what they spend.
 
D
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Interesting thread - something I have been thinking about since the auction. Laundering is not something I considered, and I don't know enough about it to speak intelligently one way or the other. My thoughts on the auction are similar to my thoughts on other previous Phillips auctions. It seems they have developed a following, largely through Aurel B., that other auction houses have not been able to achieve. It would appear that they have a collection of wealthy clients and watch investment funds that will simply buy whatever Phillips is selling on the assumption that their watches are the best of the best, largely from an investment perspective. Many of these buyers may not have the depth of knowledge seen on sites such as OF, so the safest route is to hitch your wagon to the biggest star in the vintage auction world right now. Other auction houses would not get these prices, and private sellers would not even approach these prices. I think Phillips, more than any other auction house, goes into each auction knowing full well that they are going to blow their estimates away on virtually every lot.
 
K
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D dmgreen11
Interesting thread - something I have been thinking about since the auction. Laundering is not something I considered, and I don't know enough about it to speak intelligently one way or the other. My thoughts on the auction are similar to my thoughts on other previous Phillips auctions. It seems they have developed a following, largely through Aurel B., that other auction houses have not been able to achieve. It would appear that they have a collection of wealthy clients and watch investment funds that will simply buy whatever Phillips is selling on the assumption that their watches are the best of the best, largely from an investment perspective. Many of these buyers may not have the depth of knowledge seen on sites such as OF, so the safest route is to hitch your wagon to the biggest star in the vintage auction world right now. Other auction houses would not get these prices, and private sellers would not even approach these prices. I think Phillips, more than any other auction house, goes into each auction knowing full well that they are going to blow their estimates away on virtually every lot.


or are we in the middle of a "bubble" in the vintage market that will crack
in 10 years there will be a topic like "remember when this $500 was selling at 2500$?"
 
K
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lol
0IIu0Py.png
 
watchlovr
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K kamnitz
or are we in the middle of a "bubble" in the vintage market that will crack
in 10 years there will be a topic like "remember when this $500 was selling at 2500$?"
If so we have been in this bubble for 30 years. I’ve been hearing this same phrase for that long.
 
jhross98
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D dmgreen11
Interesting thread - something I have been thinking about since the auction. Laundering is not something I considered, and I don't know enough about it to speak intelligently one way or the other. My thoughts on the auction are similar to my thoughts on other previous Phillips auctions. It seems they have developed a following, largely through Aurel B., that other auction houses have not been able to achieve. It would appear that they have a collection of wealthy clients and watch investment funds that will simply buy whatever Phillips is selling on the assumption that their watches are the best of the best, largely from an investment perspective. Many of these buyers may not have the depth of knowledge seen on sites such as OF, so the safest route is to hitch your wagon to the biggest star in the vintage auction world right now. Other auction houses would not get these prices, and private sellers would not even approach these prices. I think Phillips, more than any other auction house, goes into each auction knowing full well that they are going to blow their estimates away on virtually every lot.

+1
 
jhross98
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D dmgreen11
Interesting thread - something I have been thinking about since the auction. Laundering is not something I considered, and I don't know enough about it to speak intelligently one way or the other. My thoughts on the auction are similar to my thoughts on other previous Phillips auctions. It seems they have developed a following, largely through Aurel B., that other auction houses have not been able to achieve. It would appear that they have a collection of wealthy clients and watch investment funds that will simply buy whatever Phillips is selling on the assumption that their watches are the best of the best, largely from an investment perspective. Many of these buyers may not have the depth of knowledge seen on sites such as OF, so the safest route is to hitch your wagon to the biggest star in the vintage auction world right now. Other auction houses would not get these prices, and private sellers would not even approach these prices. I think Phillips, more than any other auction house, goes into each auction knowing full well that they are going to blow their estimates away on virtually every lot.

after talking to a few very well known dealers today i think the money laundering allegation is absurd. Aurel has clients that no one else has. . think middle eastern royalty guys. . who aren't gonna scrounge on chrono 24 to save 4k on a steel rolex

antiquorum was also very strong on sunday. i personally believe the rich are feeling less good about paper money and are moving into hard assets. . .a tiny % move in allocations to hard assets can make a tiny market like watches very strong indeed for the "right" pieces

watch the christie's 24-hour art sale in july. . i think jaws will collectively hit the floor at what they achieve with very very good material
 
K
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watchlovr watchlovr
If so we have been in this bubble for 30 years. I’ve been hearing this same phrase for that long.
30 years ago vintage watches were not vintage, probably just old
 
watchyouwant
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Ok. That thread changed direction a bit.....but interesting. So, regarding watches: mostly good news for sellers of exceptional watches? If Phillips takes your watch, that is.....I sold 3 watches with them. Their process is well streamlined and easy. Like every other mayor auction house, they can not follow instructions from the seller regarding the descriptions. They know better. And miss things. But with that clientele it does not seem to matter. The mayor driver are big Egos . At the auction house. And with the buyers. That's what it is, in my opinion. I've known Aurel ( what else can you become with a first name from an Roman Emperor ...) Since the late 90's, when he roamed Munich with its rich and shallow celebrity population. Lots of watch collectors there. And the biggest watchfair a few times every year. Many rich dealers and collectors from all over the planet. You had to be seen at the right time of day in the right cafe' and in the evening in the poshest restaurant with hard to get in bookings....shop and wear the right clothes. go skiing in Kitzbühel in Austria. And so on.....then you can play the other egos like a fiddel . The Arab oil prince with Paul Newman's Chrono will be able to on sell it for 20% more, if he gets bored with it. And the buyer will thank him for that. Aurel knows most wealthy dealers and collectors and can use the animosities for gain higher prices. And so on it goes. A Phillips auction purchase is a seal of approval somehow. You made it. But enough of that. Strong result . Will echo through the industry. All is well. Capitalism pure. No matter what happens to the Covid crowd, we do it because we can. Kind regards. Achim
 
dsacks30
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jhross98 jhross98
Aurel has clients that no one else has. . think middle eastern royalty guys. . who aren't gonna scrounge on chrono 24 to save 4k on a steel rolex

Again, I’m just hung up on the modern pieces that are still in production but went for 2-3x retail. So the buyer is presumably someone wealthy enough not to care about the 10-30K he is overpaying, but doesn’t have enough connections to get a Pepsi or Royal Oak from an AD. If we’re talking Middle Eastern royalty, they sit atop absolute monarchies and can literally kick Rolex, AP or PP out of the country if they don’t sell them a given watch. If a royal wants a modern watch, it is one phone call away.

I can see why people would overpay for objectively special pieces, but the bids for the Pepsi, Batman, Royal Oak, etc still make me scratch my head.
 
kov
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dsacks30 dsacks30
I can see why people would overpay for objectively special pieces, but the bids for the Pepsi, Batman, Royal Oak, etc still make me scratch my head.

Happens when you have the coins but no patience and no network 😀
 
Peemacgee
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dsacks30 dsacks30
If we’re talking Middle Eastern royalty, they sit atop absolute monarchies and can literally kick Rolex, AP or PP out of the country if they don’t sell them a given watch..

I think folks sometimes misunderstand the concept of Middle Eastern ‘Royals’ and their associated power.
The King or Emir often has absolute power but ‘Royals’ includes multiple brothers and sisters and cousins - all of who may be phenomenally wealthy but with little direct political power.
Then you have the ‘whales’, old established families who may be as equally phenomenally wealthy as the Royals.
These people do not sit on the end of a phone bidding on watch auction lots - they have someone to do that for them.
- and the instruction might simply be - buy lot xxx.
If they want something they know it can usually be bought.
It is hard for us mere mortals to comprehend but thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars is (Literally) pocket change in their world.


why they would buy something at a premium if it is easily available elsewhere is another matter (they often own the franchises selling luxury goods in their countries) but don’t underestimate the kudos of buying at a fashionable auction house. ( in a country where a great deal of Middle Eastern folk holiday to escape the summer heat back home)
Edited:
 
wouter van wijk
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@queriver @watchyouwant i think that too. right now Aurel Bacs and Phillips are on top of their game. AB has a track record of selling many record pieces and knows all top of the bill clients. Many people love him because he is without the doubt the best superlative hyperbolic storyteller in the auction industry. Don't we all love fairytales? He can talk a bit Trumpish about watches but somehow it resonates. And big respect about the energy level of this guy. There are always some buyers that want to pay extra do for reasons such as better pay extra and be safe or just cause they belief the hype or that they just are filthy rich. Some of the high prices for modern rolex btw had a kind of rationale (early purplish bezel, LE black gmt)
 
jhross98
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as an aside. . incredibly strong #s last night at sotheby's impressionist sale

partially same dynamic as phillips i believe
 
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