Community Stories

Omega 168.005 pie pan 1972. Fake dial ?

Lchaj
Posts
7
Likes
1
Hello everyone,

My name is Julien, and I'm on the hunt for my first vintage Omega watch, and I've completely fallen in love with the classic look of the Constellation "Pie Pan" model!

I'm currently considering purchasing one and would greatly appreciate your expert opinions on its potential authenticity, particularly regarding the dial, before I commit.

Here are the details provided by the seller:
  • Model: Constellation "Pie Pan"
  • Approximate Year: 1972
  • Movement: Calibre 564
  • Condition: Described as being in very good condition with an unpolished case (sharp lugs).
  • Specifics: The seller claims this is a version sold specifically on the Japanese market, where the "Pie Pan" design reportedly continued to be sold until around 1973, unlike the European market.

My main concern:
I have a suspicion that the dial might not be original (possibly refinished/repainted - "redial"). I'm a novice, and I want to avoid a common pitfall with vintage pieces.

* Could this specific Japanese market version from 1972/1973 with a Cal. 564 be legitimate? (I know the Cal. 564 is typical of the mid-to-late 60s Pie Pans, but perhaps the Japanese market used different references/inventory.)

* What are the key signs I should look for on a redial for this particular model?

I am adding high-resolution photos of the watch.

Any insights, references (especially for the late Japanese Pie Pans), or advice on what to check would be incredibly helpful to a first-time vintage buyer!

Thank you very much in advance!

VWS-3069 1972 OMEGA Constellation ref. 168.005 1 (1).webp VWS-3069 1972 OMEGA Constellation ref. 168.005 1 (2).webp VWS-3069 1972 OMEGA Constellation ref. 168.005 1 (3).webp VWS-3069 1972 OMEGA Constellation ref. 168.005 1 (4).webp VWS-3069 1972 OMEGA Constellation ref. 168.005 1 (15).webp VWS-3069 1972 OMEGA Constellation ref. 168.005 1 (10).webp VWS-3069 1972 OMEGA Constellation ref. 168.005 1 (8).webp VWS-3069 1972 OMEGA Constellation ref. 168.005 1 (14).webp VWS-3069 1972 OMEGA Constellation ref. 168.005 1 (16).webp
 
gatorcpa
Posts
13,081
Likes
17,935
There was a Japan only piepan Constellation, but this isn’t it. Google up Ref. 168.0065.

https://www.omegawatches.com/en-us/watch-omega-constellation-omega-st-168-0065

Totally different movement (cal. 1011). I know that the original piepan version, which is larger and thicker, was available in Japan as late as 1972, but watches with 34M serial numbers are likely either frankenwatches or replacement cal. 564 movements from a later “C” case.

I would be concerned about this particular watch.
gatorcpa
 
SOG53
Posts
2,642
Likes
5,327
If you are focusing on this reference, be aware that earlier models had onyx inserts on the hour markers, which were replaced around 1966-67 I believe with painted inserts which often are degraded over time.
You need to try to look at the indices from the end and you will see that the onyx inlay can be seen in a groove in the metal part- here is an example- The watch you are looking at has painted indices which is much less desirable. If the light is right you can see an roofline on the onyx insert look at 4:00. Also it is missing the small index at 3:00 which you can see on my example. I think the switchover from onyx to painted indices occurred in the SN range mid 25.xxx.xxx someone here may correct this. But it’s something to be aware of.

IMG_4745.webp IMG_9495.webp
 
Aludic
Posts
1,333
Likes
5,887
To me, it certainly doesn't look bad, at first glance. Nicely defined case with sharp dog leg lugs, crisp dial which doesn't have the obvious signs of a redial.

There's one thing that strikes me, though, which is that it's another example of a 168.005 with a 34xxxxxx serial. Earlier discussions deemed those to be too high for a 168.005. But the more examples show up, the more it appears that it could actually be legit? Perhaps there's indeed been a late batch of 168.005 to cater for demand in Japan, before that demand was fulfilled with the Japan specific 168,0065 that succeeded this model?

Prior discussion can be found here: https://omegaforums.net/threads/564-movement-with-34-mil-serial.69241
 
Lchaj
Posts
7
Likes
1
Thank you very much for these insights!

Based on the discussion, I have quick follow-up questions:

1. On the Dial Configuration and Condition:

I now understand that the painted indices likely confirm this is a "second-generation" dial, which would be consistent with a late serial number (early 1970s). I also note that these later dials often feature only 11 hour markers (omitting the one at 3 o'clock next to the date window).

Context on Japanese Market Chronology: The seller confirmed (before my thread) that the older 168.005 "Pie Pan" models were sold in Japan before the 168.0065 appeared. This is consistent with your link to Omega website, as the 168.0065 appears to have been sold between roughly 1974 and 1977. This supports the idea that the 168.005/Cal. 564 was indeed sold late into the Japanese market. By the way the seller proposes a japanese 168.0065 also in excellent condition but with the cal 1011 (photo attached).

My Core Concern: Given this context, does the dial configuration (painted indices, 11 markers) on the watch I'm looking at still seem clean and original to you, or are there still signs of a redial based on the pictures?

Buying Advice & Valuation:
I am aware that it is very difficult to find versions with onyx inserts today that are also in excellent condition with an unpolished case.

The price for this specific watch remains attractive considering the excellent state of the case.
  • How significantly does the presence of painted indices (instead of the more desirable onyx inserts) affect the overall market value of this watch reference?
  • In light of all these known factors (late Japanese model, Cal. 564, painted indices, unpolished case, attractive price), do you think this is a good watch to purchase, or should I walk away and keep looking for a version with onyx?

Thank you again,

PS: here is a picture of the 168.0065 available too
1762418463742.webp
 
Peemacgee
Posts
5,990
Likes
9,275
Aludic Aludic
There's one thing that strikes me, though, which is that it's another example of a 168.005 with a 34xxxxxx serial. Earlier discussions deemed those to be too high for a 168.005. But the more examples show up, the more it appears that it could actually be legit? Perhaps there's indeed been a late batch of 168.005 to cater for demand in Japan, before that demand was fulfilled with the Japan specific 168,0065 that succeeded this model?

Prior discussion can be found here: https://omegaforums.net/threads/564-movement-with-34-mil-serial.69241

This topic bounces around every now and again, with no real conclusion.
The thread you link to was posted before additional versions of late 564 serial doglegs appeared and so it appears to confirm that these watches were some kind of frankenwatch.

I'm convinced that there was a subsequent thread whereby a member posted a similar watch with compelling information that these watches appeared in the Far East post-1970 and pre the 'far-east special' doglegs.

-and further similar late 564 doglegs have been posted since - albeit very few of them, making them uncommon.
 
Peemacgee
Posts
5,990
Likes
9,275
welcome @Lchaj

The first watch you posted is a good looking watch - see above for my comment on whether it is correct or not (inconclusive I'm afraid)
It would be very useful if you could ask the seller what their proof was that there was a batch of late 564 doglegs sold in Japan. (it may settle this topic once and for all - or, of course, it may not)

The dial looks correct.
The question of onyx inserts-v-painted is a personal choice.
Painted insert dials arrived in the last couple of years of the 60s.
Onyx inserts are of undoubtedly higher quality which is why collectors generally prefer them.
There are a number of dogleg dials (both pie-pan and dome dial) that have the missing index at 3, not just these later painted insert dials.

You don't say what a 'good price' might be - and this will affect the desirability (or value for money of the watch)
 
Peemacgee
Posts
5,990
Likes
9,275
The 168.0065 is also a very good looking watch.
Whether this appeals to you is very subjective.
Some members really love them, others think they are a departure from the classic doglegs of the 60s.

Once again, price may be a factor in the choice.
 
Lchaj
Posts
7
Likes
1
Peemacgee Peemacgee
The 168.0065 is also a very good looking watch.
Whether this appeals to you is very subjective.
Some members really love them, others think they are a departure from the classic doglegs of the 60s.

Once again, price may be a factor in the choice.
The missing star on the 168.0065 is a bit a shame for me, as is the caliber, which is not the 564 that many people talk about.
But yes the price is 200€ lower than the 168.005.
For you the 168.005 (2100€) that I saw can be purchased without too much concerns? I see generally more watches around 2800 to 3000€ nowadays...
I will ask the seller too for the proof.

I don't aim to be a hyper-purist collector, although I do want to be confident that the watch I buy is indeed a vintage watch and that it is of high quality. I have no intention of reselling it (at least not for now), and it's always nice to know that it's a watch with a history and value in the eyes of some.
 
Aludic
Posts
1,333
Likes
5,887
Peemacgee Peemacgee
The thread you link to was posted before additional versions of late 564 serial doglegs appeared and so it appears to confirm that these watches were some kind of frankenwatch.

I'm convinced that there was a subsequent thread whereby a member posted a similar watch with compelling information that these watches appeared in the Far East post-1970 and pre the 'far-east special' doglegs.
So we are saying the same thing right? Multiple appearances of late 564 serial doglegs make it more and more likely that these are not some kind of frankenwatch, but actually delivered this way from the factory. The first line of your reply suggests the contrary. 😉
 
Dan S
Posts
23,022
Likes
51,468
Lchaj Lchaj
I see generally more watches around 2800 to 3000€ nowadays...
In stainless? Wow!

https://omegaforums.net/threads/omega-constellation-piepan-dog-leg-168-005-bor-1503-570-serviced-shipping-fee-included.186124/ Cover Image
Thread 'Omega Constellation Piepan Dog leg 168.005, BOR 1503/570, serviced, shipping fee included' ·
Hi everyone, for sale today is a nice Omega Dogleg 168.005.
IMG_0505.webp

1. General introduction
A stainless steel Omega 168.005, original piepan dial, Omega BOR 1503/570 in very good...
SOLD
€ 1600
hant26 ·
https://omegaforums.net/threads/ss-168-005-564-with-bracelet.181829/ Cover Image
Thread 'SS 168.005 564 with bracelet.' ·
Hi friends.
For sale is a SS pie pan 168.005 powered by a 564.
Dial has some fine white spots and very hard to see without a loupe and that is why it is priced accordingly.
This watch has been...
SOLD
$ 1600 USD
hoipolloi ·

Also check out auction sales for realistic pricing. Of course, you may have to pay up to a dealer if that's how you want to buy.
 
Lchaj
Posts
7
Likes
1
Dan S Dan S
In stainless? Wow!
Do you think 2100€ for a serviced watch with 12months warranty is too high ?
 
Lchaj
Posts
7
Likes
1
Lchaj Lchaj
Do you think 2100€ for a serviced watch with 12months warranty is too high ?
I take into account also the 20% taxes.
 
Peemacgee
Posts
5,990
Likes
9,275
Aludic Aludic
So we are saying the same thing right? Multiple appearances of late 564 serial doglegs make it more and more likely that these are not some kind of frankenwatch, but actually delivered this way from the factory. The first line of your reply suggests the contrary. 😉

Yes and no.

In my personal opinion these are not frankenwatches because a number of them have now turned up (albeit a small number) - and as I said, I'm convinced there was a post suggesting that there was evidence to support the theory that they were sold into the Far East after they were no longer sold in 'the west'.

However, as there is no conclusive evidence to date, those with a contrary opinion are justified in maintaining their stance that these watches are indeed put-together and not original.

Hence, we can't be sure - so it remains inconclusive and as such I would advise potential buyers to be wary about buying one.

Evidence from @Lchaj 's seller would be a really good addition to the collective's knowledge.

One thing to note about the OP's watch is that I would expect the 'bow' around the regulator to have a disc of metal at the end of it as this appeared on late 564s - but I haven't studied late 564 movements sufficiently to know if this is a certainty.
 
Lchaj
Posts
7
Likes
1
Unfortunately he doesn't have any physical evidence. His quote : "Omega never communicated on this unfortunately. I was told this by an Omega expert years ago". For information the seller is from switzerland, specialised in vintage watches and has a very good reputaion.
 
Dan S
Posts
23,022
Likes
51,468
Lchaj Lchaj
Do you think 2100€ for a serviced watch with 12months warranty is too high ?
I would suggest doing the research I mentioned on recent sales to decide for yourself. Everyone has different preferences about how to make purchases. Some people prefer to hunt for bargains, others prefer to deal with other collectors and pay a fair price, others prefer to pay a premium to buy from a professional dealer. I would just say that simply because someone claims to be a professional dealer, they are not necessarily trustworthy or credible. Moreover, many dealers claim that a watch was serviced, but it's not always true - or sometimes the service is of very poor quality. They are willing to take the chance that buyers won't have a problem within the return period. It's a notoriously dirty business.
 
Peemacgee
Posts
5,990
Likes
9,275
Lchaj Lchaj
Unfortunately he doesn't have any physical evidence. His quote : "Omega never communicated on this unfortunately. I was told this by an Omega expert years ago". For information the seller is from switzerland, specialised in vintage watches and has a very good reputaion.

Unfortunately, no matter the seller’s location or reputation, this falls into the category of unfounded hearsay - and as such doesn’t advance the discussion any more than the speculative threads here on OF.

So, I’m afraid you will have to decide for yourself whether the watch in question is worth gambling on.
 
Lchaj
Posts
7
Likes
1
Dan S Dan S
I would suggest doing the research I mentioned on recent sales to decide for yourself. Everyone has different preferences about how to make purchases. Some people prefer to hunt for bargains, others prefer to deal with other collectors and pay a fair price, others prefer to pay a premium to buy from a professional dealer. I would just say that simply because someone claims to be a professional dealer, they are not necessarily trustworthy or credible. Moreover, many dealers claim that a watch was serviced, but it's not always true - or sometimes the service is of very poor quality. They are willing to take the chance that buyers won't have a problem within the return period. It's a notoriously dirty business.
Peemacgee Peemacgee
Unfortunately, no matter the seller’s location or reputation, this falls into the category of unfounded hearsay - and as such doesn’t advance the discussion any more than the speculative threads here on OF.

So, I’m afraid you will have to decide for yourself whether the watch in question is worth gambling on.
It's always a little difficult to commit. I don't want to make any mistakes, which is why I have so many questions. I think that asking the right questions and cross-checking the answers on the forum and with the seller allows me to better assess the risk.

I feel that the risk is limited in terms of the watch not being original, but Omega would need to provide an official response for there to be zero risk...

It's certainly not the ultimate version for collectors, but it seems to me to be a beautiful vintage watch with an unpolished case in very good condition. So I'm going to take a chance on it.

Thanks again to everyone for your responses.
 
Dan S
Posts
23,022
Likes
51,468
Lchaj Lchaj
It's always a little difficult to commit. I don't want to make any mistakes, which is why I have so many questions. I think that asking the right questions and cross-checking the answers on the forum and with the seller allows me to better assess the risk.

I feel that the risk is limited in terms of the watch not being original, but Omega would need to provide an official response for there to be zero risk...

It's certainly not the ultimate version for collectors, but it seems to me to be a beautiful vintage watch with an unpolished case in very good condition. So I'm going to take a chance on it.

Thanks again to everyone for your responses.
The risk is also limited because the financial risk is not very high. It's only a 2k watch, and even if you sold it at a loss, it wouldn't be a huge loss. If you really like the watch, why not buy it and enjoy it.

If you want to buy a collector's piece, then wait until you find something that has no questions associated with it. For collectibility, it really doesn't matter whether you convince yourself the watch is correct, if other people have questions, then it will always be "a watch with a story." Value is dictated by perception.
 
qazwsx1
Posts
935
Likes
3,780
Peemacgee Peemacgee
The 168.0065 is also a very good looking watch.
Whether this appeals to you is very subjective.
Some members really love them, others think they are a departure from the classic doglegs of the 60s.

Once again, price may be a factor in the choice.

IMG_1111.webp


Ref. 168.0065 is quite a beautiful piece, especially with this bracelet , which is considered original and correct for this reference .
 
2 More Posts...
Sign up or log in to reply...

Similar threads

R

Omega 168.005 pie pan crystal

Richardadelberg Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
R
Richardadelberg
Posts
2
Views
614
hoipolloi

SS 168.005 pie pan. Head only.

hoipolloi Private Watch Sales
hoipolloi
hoipolloi
Posts
0
Views
990
hoipolloi

SS 168.005 pie pan Constellation.

hoipolloi Private Watch Sales
hoipolloi
hoipolloi
Posts
0
Views
1K
W

Please help me choose a vintage Omega - Pie Pan or flat dial Constellation?

wombat_time Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
dsio
dsio
Posts
11
Views
2K
qazwsx1

The Latest Constellation Pie Pan in My Collection (Ref. 168.0065)

qazwsx1 Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
qazwsx1
qazwsx1
Posts
26
Views
3K
V

Advice before purchase of Omega Constellation Pie Pan

virrepinnen Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
Peemacgee
Peemacgee
Posts
10
Views
8K