Need advice on a Speedmater Professional Ref.105.012-64

sirish19 · Feb 9, 2015

Hi All,

I am new to the forum and have been browsing around for a few days trying to do some research as I am looking into purchasing my first vintage Speedy. I found this '64 105.012 that looks to be authentic and in fairly good shape, dial, hands, bezel, etc. all seem to be correct for model and year although I would like to get the input from the experts here on the forum. It doesn't have the bracelet box or papers and just wanted to get everyone's advice on what would be a reasonable price for something in this condition.

Also, how would I go about sourcing an original bracelet for this piece if I wanted it and how much should that cost me?

Your advice is greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Stephen

Spacefruit · Feb 9, 2015

Well this watch appears correctly appointed, but in a patinated condition - and so now you have to decide the value.

The dial, the single most valuable part of a watch of this vintage, is either degraded or patinated to an attractive state. These overworked photos do make it very hard to judge which way that degradation has gone, although from experience I would say that I would like it. Plots are dirty so thats a minus. Dial looks otherwise undamaged and perhaps slightly brown.

Hands are degraded. I would probably keep them as is but I would reduce the value.

I cant tell from the photos if the case is polished.

The bezel looks pretty good, but again i suspect the photo makes it look better than it is.

No movement shot or case back.

I would not buy this watch based on these photos, but I would consider it if I could see natural light unretouched photos.

If I bought it I would service it immediately.

I really dont like buying watches based on photos like this. Someone is trying too hard. That buckle is probably a fake, and so I think this is a dealers watch prepared for sale.

sirish19 · Feb 9, 2015

Thanks Spacefruit. I went and had a look at the watch in person today and it looked fairly true to the photos although I am new to the vintage watches so cannot really tell myself. The case back had quite a few scratches and didn't seem to have been polished, none were too deep though. This is being sold by a fairly reputable dealer and they said that it was last serviced in August 2014 when they acquired it. They did say that they put the strap on (so I assume the buckle too).

I didn't have time to ask today but would the dealer normally open up the case back so that you can look at the movement?

They were asking around $4800, is that a decent price?

Spacefruit · Feb 9, 2015

First, ignore the claim it is serviced.
Second, the heart of the value is the dial, which is hard for me to asses on the photos.
That said, $4800 asking is not as crazy as some dealers for this reference, although I would want to leave room for a service, and new (vintage) hands. So working back from the chart I would say around $4000 is what this watch would achieve on ebay, possibly a little more given the dearth of available mostly correct watches.
Again SUBJECT TO A CLEAR LOOK AT THE DIAL
All my preceding comments could be thrown out if I don't like the dial in natural light.

sirish19 · Feb 9, 2015

Thanks. Let me see if I can get them to let me take it outside and snap some photos myself. What would you want to be looking at specifically on the dial? I'll also see if they'll open up the case back and let me take some photos of the movement. Is there a way that you can tell easily whether or not it has been serviced by looking at the movement?

Also, would it be easy to get new vintage hands? How much would they run normally? would there be some process to age them to match the dial?

sirish19 · Feb 10, 2015

Spacefruit
First, ignore the claim it is serviced.
Second, the heart of the value is the dial, which is hard for me to asses on the photos.
That said, $4800 asking is not as crazy as some dealers for this reference, although I would want to leave room for a service, and new (vintage) hands. So working back from the chart I would say around $4000 is what this watch would achieve on ebay, possibly a little more given the dearth of available mostly correct watches.
Again SUBJECT TO A CLEAR LOOK AT THE DIAL
All my preceding comments could be thrown out if I don't like the dial in natural light.

Hi, I talked to the dealer and they said that they don't really allow photos other than those prepared by the professional photographer. Likewise, with the movement, they said that the would only open it un and let me look at the movement after I purchased the watch. If I didn't like what I saw, I could cancel the order but I am not really sure I would know enough about what I was looking for to make a clear decision.

Alternatively, I can order online and once I receive the watch, I have a few days to cancel the order if I don't like what I see. This is a pretty reputable dealer that has been in business for a number of years and they provide a one-year warranty service so the movement should be alright. Do you think it would be worth this price if the dial were in good shape?

marturx · Feb 10, 2015

That is a decent looking Speedmaster. Seems to be all original, with all the correct details. Nice sharp case, and from what can be seen of the back it looks good too. I see, though, a damage that seems to have been painted over in the sub dial for seconds.

The hands are not so good looking IMO, but a skilled vintage watchmaker should be able to fix them pretty easily, so IMO no need to change them.

Is it worth USD 4800? Only you or anyone else willing to put up the money for it can decide.

The other year I found this 105.012-65, and after the spa, I was quite happy with the end result! Fixing the hands makes a major impact of the look of the face!

sirish19 · Feb 10, 2015

marturx
That is a decent looking Speedmaster. Seems to be all original, with all the correct details. Nice sharp case, and from what can be seen of the back it looks good too. I see, though, a damage that seems to have been painted over in the sub dial for seconds.

The hands are not so good looking IMO, but a skilled vintage watchmaker should be able to fix them pretty easily, so IMO no need to change them.

Is it worth USD 4800? Only you or anyone else willing to put up the money for it can decide.

The other year I found this 105.012-65, and after the spa, I was quite happy with the end result! Fixing the hands makes a major impact of the look of the face!

Thanks for your advice. Yes, I did notice there was something on the subdial that looks to be painted over. would that just be painted over in that place? Do you think that significantly reduces the value of the watch?

The hands on your watch look great. Can I ask where you got the hands and how they were aged?

marturx · Feb 10, 2015

The hands on my watch are the original ones to it, they were not replaced, just cleaned and refilled (partly).

I think the hands on "your" watch would look considerably better with renovated hands, i.e a little white paint and new filling. IMO it´s allowed to do that on a watch that is to be used, and not to be put on display in a museum

Spacefruit · Feb 10, 2015

sirish19
Hi, I talked to the dealer and they said that they don't really allow photos other than those prepared by the professional photographer. Likewise, with the movement, they said that the would only open it un and let me look at the movement after I purchased the watch. If I didn't like what I saw, I could cancel the order.........

Well that fills me with confidence

sirish19 · Feb 10, 2015

Spacefruit
Well that fills me with confidence

That was actually exactly the response I was expecting though considering I am in Japan. I don't think that it indicates that they are trying to hide anything but Japan is a very rule oriented country where they don't really question or challenge things.

You had mentioned that the dial was the heart of the value was in the dial. As marturx pointed out, it does look like the second hand sub-dial has been painted over some damage, in your opinion, does that significantly reduce the value of the watch or make it a "No Buy" in your opinion?

I am thinking about going ahead and buying this watch and have them open up the case back and have a look at the movement. What should I be looking for to ensure that it is the correct movement and that it has in fact been serviced?

TNTwatch · Feb 10, 2015

I think the painted over subdial makes it overpriced. Depends on taste, but the black-ish lume is not really attractive to me.

sirish19 · Feb 10, 2015

TNTwatch
I think the painted over subdial makes it overpriced. Depends on taste, but the black-ish lume is not really attractive to me.

Thanks for your input. How much overpriced do you think this is? The actual price that the shop is charging is around $4400, plus tax it shoots up to around $4800 though.

Are there better specimens out there to be had?

sirish19 · Feb 10, 2015

Here is another one that I am considering. It is a 145-012 - 67 selling for around $3,300. Dial looks cleaner but bezel and hands have been replaced. Any thoughts on which is a better find?

flame · Feb 10, 2015

sirish19
Here is another one that I am considering. It is a 145-012 - 67 selling for around $3,300. Dial looks cleaner but bezel and hands have been replaced. Any thoughts on which is a better find?

Hi

Nasty relume attempt on the dial for a start....avoid like the plague !

Best - Neil

sirish19 · Feb 10, 2015

Thanks.

Nactex · Feb 10, 2015

FYI This is a site that can show the minute differences in the different years of the 105.012:
http://www.speedmaster101.com/105-012/

TNTwatch · Feb 10, 2015

sirish19
Thanks for your input. How much overpriced do you think this is? The actual price that the shop is charging is around $4400, plus tax it shoots up to around $4800 though.

Are there better specimens out there to be had?

There is also a hand scraping mark on the hour recorder subdial, which is also unrepairable. In my pinion, this damaged dial makes it no more valuable than the other watch you're considering. There may not be many nice examples out there, but I think you'd be well rewarded in the end if you're patient, much better than ending up with undesirable samples.

sirish19 · Feb 10, 2015

Thanks for all of your comments, very helpful advice to avoid an expensive mistake. Will keep looking. If anyone comes across a nice pre-moon piece, please do let me know.

gemini4 · Feb 10, 2015

I have bought Speedmasters, via the internet, from Jack Road and have been happy with the quality of their watches. I believe the watches are serviced and they do warranty them for a year but I haven't found it necessary to avail myself of the warranty. Their watches are in better condition than another shop, Sweet Road.

That being said, at the present time there are few vintage Speedmasters available in Japan, at least on the internet. If the import customs, and the low value of the Yen, are manageable, why not buy an ebay, chrono24 or forum watch (with the right of return). There are many many more pieces to choose from outside of Japan.

Need advice on a Speedmater Professional Ref.105.012-64

sirish19

Spacefruit

sirish19

Spacefruit

sirish19

sirish19

marturx

sirish19

marturx

Spacefruit

sirish19

TNTwatch

sirish19

sirish19

flame

sirish19

Nactex

TNTwatch

sirish19

gemini4

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