Community Stories

More Fakes in 5xx than in 3xx ?

RoadRunner73
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While chasing MY Connie, I have seen quite a few 5XX (eg 505 - 561) which show quite differences in colours between for example Rotors and Bridges or even main plates ; this to me "could" be the sign of some re-assembled movements, eg the bridge from a Connie put into the movement of a "standard" Seamaster movement... Ideal to put the part that bears "adjusted five (5) positions ..." on a non-chronometer watch and pretend it is one; For an non-expert like me, it would be difficult to detect.

So this suddenly raised a question : would 3xx series (a good 354 Bumper for instance) known or likely to be less subject to re-assembling ?
Fewer production, less opportunities ??

You have 2 hours ! 😎
Many thanks for your comments !!
 
dsio
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Different colors doesn’t mean fake, these are vintage watches that have been serviced over the years. This especially applies to the auto winding mechanism and rotor which are frequently replaced during service if too worn.
 
DON
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Parts between all bumper models are compatible. Bridges from small seconds can be used in any similar small second models and same for bridges in sweep (not including ones with chronometer engravings)

Same for a number of 5xx movements up to a point. 490 - 505 then 550 - 565. Could be off a calibre or two

so if a movement has an aged and discoloured bridge. If you have the part. It could be swapped out and would not lessen the value at all if compatible

plating could wear differently. Doesn’t mean it was swapped out, but visually not attractive
 
gatorcpa
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Rotors for the 3XX series of automatics are definitely not compatible among all the movements. They all look the same on the internet, but the heights are different.
gatorcpa
 
DON
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gatorcpa gatorcpa
Rotors for the 3XX series of automatics are definitely not compatible among all the movements. They all look the same on the internet, but the heights are different.
gatorcpa

Was thinking that, but forgot to mention

Are the heights different? Really didn't measure, but did a post mentioning the weights on the underside changed. I'm guessing to provided better efficiency in winding. I was trying to figure out which went with what movements (sitting in a few tins)
 
gatorcpa
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DON DON
Are the heights different?
That was my experience. I ordered a “oscillating weight” for a cal. 343 movement for my cal. 352. The one that arrived looked OK down to the the chronometer language, but when it was installed, it did not sit even with rest of the movement. And of course, the snap back wouldn’t fit. At least Jules Borel took it back for a refund.

So yeah, the part numbers are different for a reason.
gatorcpa
 
RoadRunner73
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Understood ; actually the seller whom I asked why the rotor of a 561 was rather yellowish when the bridge is rather "Rosé" said it could be a different reaction to cleanser solution ; I though that would be a bit odd, as, correct me if I'm wrong, all main parts of a movement would have undergone same copper plating batch/bath ... unless say the rotor might have been replaced, maybe even 20 years ago ; so yes, doesn't mean it's a Franken, but at least less pleasant to the eyes.
Thx so far guys !
 
gatorcpa
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BTW, I think all the 55X and 56X rotors are compatible. It’s a different movement entirely.
gatorcpa
 
sheepdoll
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gatorcpa gatorcpa
Rotors for the 3XX series of automatics are definitely not compatible among all the movements. They all look the same on the internet, but the heights are different.
gatorcpa
I saw this between the 344 sub seconds and the 351. Small subtle things the sweep (SC) watches have different heights to handle the extra bridges. Even the screws are different.

Dials and calendar date rings can also affect movement heights.

It has been a while since I worked with the 5xx series. I think those mostly have sweep hands.

Eventually I will be getting to the 620, 671/681 movements. I have seen similar discoloration on these.

I have had some of these in my possession for nearly 30 years. Others less than 6 months.

Age before beauty they sometimes state...
 
RoadRunner73
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So am I right in stating that mixing 3xx parts is not as easy as with the 5xx series ?
 
gatorcpa
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RoadRunner73 RoadRunner73
So am I right in stating that mixing 3xx parts is not as easy as with the 5xx series ?
Correct! One reason as @sheepdoll pointed out is that all 5XX automatic movements are center seconds.
gatorcpa
 
DON
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gatorcpa gatorcpa
That was my experience. I ordered a “oscillating weight” for a cal. 343 movement for my cal. 352. The one that arrived looked OK down to the the chronometer language, but when it was installed, it did not sit even with rest of the movement. And of course, the snap back wouldn’t fit. At least Jules Borel took it back for a refund.

So yeah, the part numbers are different for a reason.
gatorcpa

Did a check. Small second are a touch higher on the underside weighted area

343 only fits 343 and same for 352. Neither are compatible with others of the same design, but that may only be due to the chronometer listing, so as not to put one on a non C movement
 
gatorcpa
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DON DON
Did a check. Small second are a touch higher on the underside weighted area

343 only fits 343 and same for 352. Neither are compatible with others of the same design, but that may only be due to the chronometer listing, so as not to put one on a non C movement

Cal. 343 and 352 are both chronometers. I think it has to do with center seconds vs. sub-seconds. I also think that a cal. 351 rotor will fit a cal. 352 movement, but will not have the chronometer engraving. Both are center seconds movements, but there are some 352’s that never had chronometer rotors. So those must have been the 351’s.

Clear as mud, right? Welcome to the wonderful world of vintage Omega.
gatorcpa
 
RoadRunner73
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And what about putting a winding bridge from a 354 Connie on a 354 Seamaster ? Same size ? wouldn't this be the easiest way to increase the value of the movement, and pretend it is a chronometer ?
 
gatorcpa
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RoadRunner73 RoadRunner73
And what about putting a winding bridge from a 354 Connie on a 354 Seamaster ? Same size ? wouldn't this be the easiest way to increase the value of the movement, and pretend it is a chronometer ?
:whipped:
gatorcpa
 
DON
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RoadRunner73 RoadRunner73
And what about putting a winding bridge from a 354 Connie on a 354 Seamaster ? Same size ? wouldn't this be the easiest way to increase the value of the movement, and pretend it is a chronometer ?

Can I assume. Balance the same. Maybe better timed at the factory, but all in all. Can swap parts between the two
 
DON
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gatorcpa gatorcpa
Cal. 343 and 352 are both chronometers. I think it has to do with center seconds vs. sub-seconds. I also think that a cal. 351 rotor will fit a cal. 352 movement, but will not have the chronometer engraving. Both are center seconds movements, but there are some 352’s that never had chronometer rotors. So those must have been the 351’s.

Clear as mud, right? Welcome to the wonderful world of vintage Omega.
gatorcpa

I meant that the 343 didn't work as it sits higher on the underside. Can use it probably in any small second oval spring movement

Same for the 352. Can use in any sweep second.

Borel only mentions the 343 only as it's a chronometer, so someone doesn't order one for a 342. Same for 352
 
RoadRunner73
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I was of course mentioning possible fakes I might come across and being an absolute Donkey with regards to expertise of movements, would probably not be able to detect !
 
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