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VjaceCZ
·Worth knowing for insurance if nothing else! Being underinsured because an asset has shot up in price and you’ve not noticed is no fun should you be in the unfortunate circumstance of needing to make a claim.
Modern Apollo Soyuz LE - another 20.000€ watch?
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VjaceCZ
·EDIT: unlike Tintins that people seem to want to dump with the current prices.
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omegabruh
·Yeah I liked the design and bought it about 2.5yrs ago and the uniqueness was enough to draw me to it. I read sooo many reviews and posts and pretty much most common opinion was that people didn’t like it.
Good for you on picking it one up for a discount. Do you mind me asking how much you paid for it? I remember getting mine from the OB for a 10% discount and a free strap and I was super happy with that.
Good for you on picking it one up for a discount. Do you mind me asking how much you paid for it? I remember getting mine from the OB for a 10% discount and a free strap and I was super happy with that.
Absolutely. Year or so back I've posted here my expectation A17 40th being an expensive watch because of this unique design and because almost nobody from watch community didn't like it. To be honest I didn't like it as well but bought the watch just because I was convinced it will be a sought after model one day. I got it BNIB from AD with a huge discount. They got the watch in the shelf for years...
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VjaceCZ
·Yeah I liked the design and bought it about 2.5yrs ago and the uniqueness was enough to draw me to it. I read sooo many reviews and posts and pretty much most common opinion was that people didn’t like it.
Good for you on picking it one up for a discount. Do you mind me asking how much you paid for it? I remember getting mine from the OB for a 10% discount and a free strap and I was super happy with that.
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eugeneandresson
·Is nobody else bothered by the fact that e.g. with the TinTin there are many dials and casebacks floating around and in mods? Up until recently they were purchase-able from Omega without a swapping policy…
Edit : AS LE is a 👍 piece … put in the spotlight by the release of the platinum 321 no doubt.
Edit : AS LE is a 👍 piece … put in the spotlight by the release of the platinum 321 no doubt.
Edited:
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VjaceCZ
·Is nobody else bothered by the fact that e.g. with the TinTin there are many dials and casebacks floating around and in mods? Up until recently they were purchase-able from Omega without a swapping policy…
Edit : AS LE is a 👍 piece … put in the spotlight by the release of the platinum 321 no doubt.
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dsio
··Ash @ ΩFIs nobody else bothered by the fact that e.g. with the TinTin there are many dials and casebacks floating around and in mods? Up until recently they were purchase-able from Omega without a swapping policy…
Edit : AS LE is a 👍 piece … put in the spotlight by the release of the platinum 321 no doubt.
The Mitsukoshi for example I honestly think there are more Frankens out there than real ones at this point.
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VjaceCZ
·Many of the newer guys don’t remember how watchco dumped a crazy number of LE Speedmaster dials into the market on ebay, like 300-500 for a Gemini 4 or an Apollo 11 35th panda, or a fist gen snoopy… I’ve still got a few I stocked up on back then that I’ve not got around to using but there are hundreds out there of each LE.
The Mitsukoshi for example I honestly think there are more Frankens out there than real ones at this point.
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dsio
··Ash @ ΩFSpeaking of Mitsukoshi - I didn’t see any available for a long time period. There is one mod for sale at C24 but it’s advertised as a mod watch. I look for the Mitsukoshi ads regularly and there’s nothing to be seen. Really. On the other hand with Mitsukoshi, that isn’t too complicated - cards with Mitsukoshi store department stamp and watch case number must be same as on the watch itself. TinTin mods, A11 35th, first Snoopy, Japan Racing…these are more difficult to reveal.
That was just one parts distributor in Australia’s stock, how many other countries have warehouses full of limited parts trickling out.
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ckhaing
·its all about quality i guess
seiko is cool with the mod community whatever they do with their basic movement NH35 family as everybody can easily build one mix and match with factory and aftermarket parts, where as grand seiko quality has been difficult to replicate / built by average joe, not so sure about their price / demand situation in secondary market though
how difficult is speedmaster LE built if parts are available?
seiko is cool with the mod community whatever they do with their basic movement NH35 family as everybody can easily build one mix and match with factory and aftermarket parts, where as grand seiko quality has been difficult to replicate / built by average joe, not so sure about their price / demand situation in secondary market though
how difficult is speedmaster LE built if parts are available?
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befobe
·A good point for the meteorite dials, they are more complicated to fake...😁😁
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Scarecrow Boat
·That was just one parts distributor in Australia’s stock, how many other countries have warehouses full of limited parts trickling out.
I wonder how much of Omega clamping down is due to *Edit: Lewis* WatchCo. I am not saying he is responsible, but to say he has taken advantage of his parts account is a bit of an understatement. He recently sent out a sales email for builds he just completed and this little screenshot was apart of it.
Edited:
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerSwissLE still has a bunch of LE dials for sale at exorbitant prices. For a while they had a snoopy dial but that is out of stock. They currently have Racing, Gemini IV, Mars, Italian, Rhodium Apollo 11, and White dial gold indices... in addition to the matching hand sets. They used to have all of the other popular LE dials but have since sold out.
I wonder how much of Omega clamping down is due to WatchCo. I am not saying he is responsible, but to say he has taken advantage of his parts account is a bit of an understatement. He recently sent out a sales email for builds he just completed and this little screenshot was apart of it.
Just a point of clarification. LWC is not Watchco. Watchco hasn’t really been in the game for a number of years. LWC is another watchmaker (and member here) who has used his parts account to build watches for direct sale, the same as Watchco did. This is a clear violation of Omega policies, and I have been told point blank by Omega is grounds for losing your account.
I do believe that is what happened to Watchco, but LWC still has his as far as I know...
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Scarecrow Boat
·Just a point of clarification. LWC is not Watchco. Watchco hasn’t really been in the game for a number of years. LWC is another watchmaker (and member here) who has used his parts account to build watches for direct sale, the same as Watchco did. This is a clear violation of Omega policies, and I have been told point blank by Omega is grounds for losing your account.
I do believe that is what happened to Watchco, but LWC still has his as far as I know...
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Evitzee
·This really comes back to Omega for making 'limited edition' models with often nothing different than a different dial (Mitsukoshi and Japan Racing) with no specific nomenclature on the case or documentation. And the Tintin with different dial AND a different back, but again no specific mention of how many were made to differentiate them. And then dumping who knows how many authentic dials, backs, hands on the market. Don't blame the techs in the field for assembling and modifying watches with the genuine Omega stuff out there to satisfy their customers desires. I'm not sure why watch manufacturers get all bent out of shape with people modifying their watches, few mods are made to trick people and the mods are done with genuine parts Omega has made available. Don't want mods, then don't make the dials, bezels, hands, backs available for sale except on an exchange basis. Omega seems to have seen the folly of their past practices because LE's now are numbered and come with documentation, and they aren't allowing things like Tokyo 2020 dials and bezels out on the market to be assembled into replica watches. And the older stuff is only available on an exchange basis now. Omega (Swatch!) protests too much, they facilitated what perceived problem they think exists. I guess we can be glad that Omega doesn't prohibit us putting different straps or bracelets on our watches, but it would never surprise me to see Omega refuse to service a watch if it came in with a bracelet or strap that wasn't on it from the factory since their position seems to be mods are unacceptable.
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VjaceCZ
·This really comes back to Omega for making 'limited edition' models with often nothing different than a different dial (Mitsukoshi and Japan Racing) with no specific nomenclature on the case or documentation. And the Tintin with different dial AND a different back, but again no specific mention of how many were made to differentiate them. And then dumping who knows how many authentic dials, backs, hands on the market. Don't blame the techs in the field for assembling and modifying watches with the genuine Omega stuff out there to satisfy their customers desires. I'm not sure why watch manufacturers get all bent out of shape with people modifying their watches, few mods are made to trick people and the mods are done with genuine parts Omega has made available. Don't want mods, then don't make the dials, bezels, hands, backs available for sale except on an exchange basis. Omega seems to have seen the folly of their past practices because LE's now are numbered and come with documentation, and they aren't allowing things like Tokyo 2020 dials and bezels out on the market to be assembled into replica watches. And the older stuff is only available on an exchange basis now. Omega (Swatch!) protests too much, they facilitated what perceived problem they think exists. I guess we can be glad that Omega doesn't prohibit us putting different straps or bracelets on our watches, but it would never surprise me to see Omega refuse to service a watch if it came in with a bracelet or strap that wasn't on it from the factory since their position seems to be mods are unacceptable.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerThis really comes back to Omega for making 'limited edition' models with often nothing different than a different dial (Mitsukoshi and Japan Racing) with no specific nomenclature on the case or documentation.
Any differences would be reflected in documentation, so this is false. These all had their own PIC numbers, so the card that came with the watch will have that on it, and if you get an Extract of the Archives it will reflect the correct PIC number and point of sale.
And then dumping who knows how many authentic dials, backs, hands on the market.
Omega didn't "dump" anything on the market. Omega allowed the purchase of spare parts for repairs. It's the people who used them for other reasons that have created this problem.
This is one reason why Omega cut off the third party resellers, like Otto Frei, because all they wanted to do was sell as many parts as possible, and they didn't care how they would be used. Otto Frei in particular cultivated watch enthusiasts as customers for Omega parts, and likely was responsible for enabling more of these dials going into the wrong watches than any other single entity. When Omega stopped selling them parts, Omega was painted as the bad guy.
few mods are made to trick people and the mods are done with genuine parts Omega has made available.
Regardless of the intent of the initial modded watch, once it's out there and gets sold then the original intent is out the window. I doubt many people are aware just how many modded watches are out there being sold as the real thing. I get emails and PM's in various forums daily asking me to verify the serial number of a watch that's being sold as a real LE to see if it's been modded, and very often they are not real LE's. One dealer contacts me regularly to check watches he is either buying or getting in trade to check these, so he doesn't pass on something that isn't real, but very few dealers go to this trouble. This is why I personally refuse to participate in making fake LE's, because no matter what the original person's intent is, once it's sold they often end up being sold to unsuspecting buyers for a premium as an original LE.
Omega has clamped down now, so we won't see more in the future, but there are already lots out there.
Cheers, Al
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Evitzee
·^^^ @Archer you are certainly correct that the documentation would show the unique PIC number but we all know that Warranty cards and boxes often get separated, lost or tossed out, and at that point there isn't any way to tell if a Mitsukoski or Japan Racing model is authentic or not. You could get an Extract but most people aren't going to do that because of time, cost or being unaware of the service. It would just seem obvious that the watch should have an indication, usually on the case back, if the watch is a limited piece. It seems that the current practice is to do that now so that pretty much solves that issue going forward. I'm sure back in the day Omega never thought that a special dial for a department store in Japan or a racing dial for the Japanese market could become hot properties 15+ years later. Times change.
I guess my question is if Omega made 300 Mitsukoshi dialled watches back around 2003 why did they make so many extra dials that were sold to anyone with an Omega parts account? A dial could be messed up in practice or in repair but shouldn't a replacement be sold on a return basis? I think they do that now and I know things were different 15+ years ago but why were so many extra dials made in the first place? I would not be surprised if there are more Mitsukoski, and Japan Racing, dials out there than there were original watches. I don't know what industry practice is, if a special run of 1,000 watches is made with a special dial how many extra dials are made for future repairs or overhauls? 100, 200, more, less? Perhaps they figured if they needed 300 dials they might as well make 1,000 as the extra cost is pretty small.
I agree that once a watch is modded the original intent can be lost during subsequent sales. If a mod is done to bring the watch into exact specs as the LE version that can be a problem. But often mods are done where hands, bezel and/or back are changed in a format that doesn't match any original model made by Omega. To me these are less problematical because it is harder to sell these kinds of watches as a special limited edition. But I guess unscrupulous people could claim it as a rare Omega prototype.
I can see the pro's and con's of modding, people do like to change things to suit their personal tastes.
I guess my question is if Omega made 300 Mitsukoshi dialled watches back around 2003 why did they make so many extra dials that were sold to anyone with an Omega parts account? A dial could be messed up in practice or in repair but shouldn't a replacement be sold on a return basis? I think they do that now and I know things were different 15+ years ago but why were so many extra dials made in the first place? I would not be surprised if there are more Mitsukoski, and Japan Racing, dials out there than there were original watches. I don't know what industry practice is, if a special run of 1,000 watches is made with a special dial how many extra dials are made for future repairs or overhauls? 100, 200, more, less? Perhaps they figured if they needed 300 dials they might as well make 1,000 as the extra cost is pretty small.
I agree that once a watch is modded the original intent can be lost during subsequent sales. If a mod is done to bring the watch into exact specs as the LE version that can be a problem. But often mods are done where hands, bezel and/or back are changed in a format that doesn't match any original model made by Omega. To me these are less problematical because it is harder to sell these kinds of watches as a special limited edition. But I guess unscrupulous people could claim it as a rare Omega prototype.
I can see the pro's and con's of modding, people do like to change things to suit their personal tastes.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerBased on your posts, you seem to be taking multiple positions on this at once, so I'm not really sure what you are after. You seem to want people to be able to make mods, but then criticize Omega for allowing it to happen. I'm not Omega, so I don't speak for them, so I was just replying to the hyperbole of your other post.
I'll try to address some specific things you are asking about in this one...
Yes there is. You get the serial number of the watch, and call Omega with it. You tell them that you want to verify what the PIC of the watch is based on the serial number. As you have now acknowledged, they are different PIC's, so you will know immediately if the PIC is for a 3570500 instead of a 35703100 or a 35704000, it's not a real LE.
As I stated, I have looked up hundreds and hundreds of these for people, and when this topic comes up I always advise people that they should verify the serial number matches the reference of the LE with Omega, no matter if they have paperwork or not.
Yes, as you have astutely pointed out, hindsight is indeed 20/20...
Do you have any experience with inventory systems and how stock is maintained? Your premise that Omega made all these dials years ago when the watches were made is not the case. These dials are being made as the need arises, based on stock levels and demand. If you look at this dial for example:
Omega Speedmaster Japanese Racing Dial 3570.40.00 c.1861 | Swiss Limited Editio (swisslimitededitions.com)
Look at the photo of the back of the package, and you will see "46.09" so this dial was made in the 46th week of 2009. These watches were made in 2004 I believe, so this dial was manufactured 5 years after the run of watches was done.
If you look at this one:
RARE Omega Speedmaster WHITE Dial Gold Indexes c.861 German Edition 1980’s | Swiss Limited Editio (swisslimitededitions.com)
The dial for what is called a "1980's" watch, was made in the first week of 2011.
I have a dial on order for an LE that I was told won't be in production again until later this year, so in the mean time I wait.
Again Omega is always criticized for not allowing free distribution of parts to anyone who wants them (even though they are one of the most cooperative companies in this regard), and now they are being criticized for being too generous with parts distribution - damned if you do and damned of you don't. Omega can't control how people use dials they sell for repairs, anymore than gun manufacturers can control what someone does with a firearm they purchase, so blaming the manufacturer here is a bit of a slippery slope.
All they can do is threaten to pull someone's parts account for doing this, but clearly people still get away with it. Omega pout trust in people to use the parts the way they were intended, but greed gets in the way. Rolex micromanages parts so that you feel like you aren't even in control of your own business - you can't even order an extra screw if you want to. No one who works on watches wants to operate this way, but thanks to a few, we all pay the price now. If I have to change one of these dials there will be a big wait now because I have to send the old dial in first, before I can get the new one shipped. The big question is, what happens if the dial I send in gets lost? A whole new can of worms opened up because of a few people who wanted to make some extra money...
As is very obvious, these parts are easy to change, so these are no less problematic than watches made to look exactly like an LE, at least in my opinion.
Cheers, Al
I'll try to address some specific things you are asking about in this one...
Yes there is. You get the serial number of the watch, and call Omega with it. You tell them that you want to verify what the PIC of the watch is based on the serial number. As you have now acknowledged, they are different PIC's, so you will know immediately if the PIC is for a 3570500 instead of a 35703100 or a 35704000, it's not a real LE.
As I stated, I have looked up hundreds and hundreds of these for people, and when this topic comes up I always advise people that they should verify the serial number matches the reference of the LE with Omega, no matter if they have paperwork or not.
It would just seem obvious that the watch should have an indication, usually on the case back, if the watch is a limited piece. It seems that the current practice is to do that now so that pretty much solves that issue going forward. I'm sure back in the day Omega never thought that a special dial for a department store in Japan or a racing dial for the Japanese market could become hot properties 15+ years later. Times change.
Yes, as you have astutely pointed out, hindsight is indeed 20/20...
I guess my question is if Omega made 300 Mitsukoshi dialled watches back around 2003 why did they make so many extra dials that were sold to anyone with an Omega parts account?
Do you have any experience with inventory systems and how stock is maintained? Your premise that Omega made all these dials years ago when the watches were made is not the case. These dials are being made as the need arises, based on stock levels and demand. If you look at this dial for example:
Omega Speedmaster Japanese Racing Dial 3570.40.00 c.1861 | Swiss Limited Editio (swisslimitededitions.com)
Look at the photo of the back of the package, and you will see "46.09" so this dial was made in the 46th week of 2009. These watches were made in 2004 I believe, so this dial was manufactured 5 years after the run of watches was done.
If you look at this one:
RARE Omega Speedmaster WHITE Dial Gold Indexes c.861 German Edition 1980’s | Swiss Limited Editio (swisslimitededitions.com)
The dial for what is called a "1980's" watch, was made in the first week of 2011.
I have a dial on order for an LE that I was told won't be in production again until later this year, so in the mean time I wait.
Again Omega is always criticized for not allowing free distribution of parts to anyone who wants them (even though they are one of the most cooperative companies in this regard), and now they are being criticized for being too generous with parts distribution - damned if you do and damned of you don't. Omega can't control how people use dials they sell for repairs, anymore than gun manufacturers can control what someone does with a firearm they purchase, so blaming the manufacturer here is a bit of a slippery slope.
All they can do is threaten to pull someone's parts account for doing this, but clearly people still get away with it. Omega pout trust in people to use the parts the way they were intended, but greed gets in the way. Rolex micromanages parts so that you feel like you aren't even in control of your own business - you can't even order an extra screw if you want to. No one who works on watches wants to operate this way, but thanks to a few, we all pay the price now. If I have to change one of these dials there will be a big wait now because I have to send the old dial in first, before I can get the new one shipped. The big question is, what happens if the dial I send in gets lost? A whole new can of worms opened up because of a few people who wanted to make some extra money...
I agree that once a watch is modded the original intent can be lost during subsequent sales. If a mod is done to bring the watch into exact specs as the LE version that can be a problem. But often mods are done where hands, bezel and/or back are changed in a format that doesn't match any original model made by Omega. To me these are less problematical because it is harder to sell these kinds of watches as a special limited edition. But I guess unscrupulous people could claim it as a rare Omega prototype.
As is very obvious, these parts are easy to change, so these are no less problematic than watches made to look exactly like an LE, at least in my opinion.
Cheers, Al
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pdxleaf
·One side benefit of allowing open access to Omega's parts to any watchmaker is that we can get our watches fixed without having to go through Omega.
I asked a watchmaker friend about jobs for young watchmakers and he commented that it is getting harder to do the job when the brand won't sell you the parts. That limits the new jobs to working in the factory location for a specific brand. Not everyone wants to work in Secaucus NJ for example. It has the effect of killing the opportunities for independent watchmakers.
Without getting into the pros and cons of modding, thankfully we can still check the serial number. It's like so many aspects of buying a used watch anymore, know the seller and do your due diligence, which of course people here know. Lots of reasons to lament that it can still be a minefield and wish it weren't so. But it seems that Omega is trying to find a balance.
I asked a watchmaker friend about jobs for young watchmakers and he commented that it is getting harder to do the job when the brand won't sell you the parts. That limits the new jobs to working in the factory location for a specific brand. Not everyone wants to work in Secaucus NJ for example. It has the effect of killing the opportunities for independent watchmakers.
Without getting into the pros and cons of modding, thankfully we can still check the serial number. It's like so many aspects of buying a used watch anymore, know the seller and do your due diligence, which of course people here know. Lots of reasons to lament that it can still be a minefield and wish it weren't so. But it seems that Omega is trying to find a balance.
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