Modern 321 Ed White vs Vintage 105.003 Speedmaster

Posts
29,815
Likes
77,159
Breguet did not "make" the balance spring. He's been dead for a while now...

A Breguet overcoil spring is a specific design, not something made by Breguet (the man or the company).
 
Posts
1,764
Likes
5,551
861s are not breguet blue spring but downscaled speedies because breguet hairsprings are too expensive at that time when omega started to massbproduced chronographs accross new models from speedmaster to seamasters. the article is not ai, but based on online records
Edited:
 
Posts
1,764
Likes
5,551
Breguet did not "make" the balance spring. He's been dead for a while now...

A Breguet overcoil spring is a specific design, not something made by Breguet (the man or the company).

missed the point. in the esrly 60s production of watches were coming from common swiss parts manufacturers, all swiss made, like cases, crystal, etc.. hence, breguet hairsprings. there is nothing in my post that said omega made the breguet hairsprings.
 
Posts
29,815
Likes
77,159
missed the point. in the esrly 60s production of watches were coming from common swiss parts manufacturers, all swiss nade, like cases, crystal, etc.. hence, breguet hairsprings. there is nothing said that omega made the hairsprings.
So are you claiming that the Breguet company made the springs?
 
Posts
1,764
Likes
5,551
yes Archer. that was what i read in old articles when i had a 321 since 2006. there were 3 major parts i recall that were changed in 321 to 861. breguet hairspring, column wheel and the bridge. Omega may not have mentioned this. i clearly recalled in those old articles. That's why 861 speedies are cheaper.
Edited:
 
Posts
1,764
Likes
5,551
Remember, 321 is not an omega caliber. it is Lemania 321.
 
Posts
29,815
Likes
77,159
yes Archer. that was i read in old articles when i had a 321 since 2006. there were 3 major parts i recall that were changed in 321 to 861. breguet hairspring, column wheel and the bridge. Omega may not have mentioned this. i clearly recalled in those old articles. That's why 861 speedies are cheaper.
The movements were made by Lemania - both the 321 and 861.

The problem is that the information you are consuming makes a common assumption - that every overcoil balance spring is a "Breguet" balance spring. Breguet was but one person who contributed to the use of overcoils - it started with Arnold using shaped end curves for cylindrical balance springs, Breguet adapted it for flat balance springs, and then came Phillips and Grossman who really perfected what these look like in the 20th century.

The springs you see in watches like the 321's are more Phillips than Breguet.

If you are going to continue to claim that the Breguet company made these for Lemania, then providing some proof would be appropriate.
 
Posts
1,764
Likes
5,551
i know 861 is lemania based. it is still lemania so to say, because it was acquired subsequently by omega but, it was modified when 3 distinct major parts were replaced. that's why 321 is very rare, very rare to own. proofs are available from historical on line records. they are not AI generated. Philipps is later parts. The original article i saw before is no longer available, probly was not able to maintain the old website. great sharing of information. cheers
Edited:
 
Posts
29,815
Likes
77,159
Philipps is later parts.
It's not about parts - it's about design. Since Pillips died in the late 1800's he wasn't making parts for Speedmasters either.

You should really brush up on this stuff if you are going to keep making wild claims...
 
Posts
29,815
Likes
77,159
it was modified when 3 distinct major parts were replaced. that's why 321 is very rare, very rare to own.
They are not rare or special - they are very typical chronograph movement of the time and there are tons of them out there.

Regarding what the actual differences are between the 321 and 861, you might want to read this carefully:


The column wheel to cam change is really nothing in the way of cost savings. The changes to the balance would have saved some money, but the 861 is actually just as accurate with the smooth balance and flat balance spring.
 
Posts
13,734
Likes
53,607
Vintage 321 is cool but constrained. Owning a modern watch is practical.
 
Posts
2,058
Likes
9,154
I really want one, and my OB will oblige, but the tariff situation has hit my industry pretty hard(german luxury cars), cutting into my take home. And I don't want to sell any of my watches to finance it, so I will be waiting awhile longer.
 
Posts
235
Likes
236
Of all the people to choose to, I don't even know, is that mansplaining? Anyway, Archer is the absolute last person here to pick that fight with
 
Posts
10,501
Likes
16,407
Of all the people to choose to, I don't even know, is that mansplaining? Anyway, Archer is the absolute last person here to pick that fight with
Agreed. Know your enemy. I’d pick a fight with Iran before trying to ‘tell’ Archer anything.
 
Posts
29,815
Likes
77,159
Agreed. Know your enemy. I’d pick a fight with Iran before trying to ‘tell’ Archer anything.
I'm always willing to listen to a well reasoned argument on a technical subject...

Should I change my avatar???

 
Posts
7,198
Likes
23,349
Of all the people to choose to, I don't even know, is that mansplaining? Anyway, Archer is the absolute last person here to pick that fight with

I don’t think either were picking a fight, there was just a disagreement. Plus, that exchange was really interesting, so that’s the upside.

I’ve had a number of 321’s over the years. Anecdotally, they are much more finicky and less accurate timekeepers than my 861’s. But I still like them better.
 
Posts
235
Likes
236
I don’t think either were picking a fight, there was just a disagreement. Plus, that exchange was really interesting, so that’s the upside.

I’ve had a number of 321’s over the years. Anecdotally, they are much more finicky and less accurate timekeepers than my 861’s. But I still like them better.
It reminded me of "arguments" I've had with subject matter experts when I knew just enough to be dangerous.

So maybe I brought my own perspective of being a dumbass there.
 
Posts
7,198
Likes
23,349
It reminded me of "arguments" I've had with subject matter experts when I knew just enough to be dangerous.

So maybe I brought my own perspective of being a dumbass there.

That’s fair, and I’m sure we’ve all done this at times. However, when I read @Screwbacks posts, I surmised that he had either done quite a bit of research, or has a decent amount of experience himself when he got into a dialogue with Al.

Now, I know Al has a wealth of experience and does this for a living, and I’m not sure about @Screwbacks credentials. Nevertheless, healthy, courteous debate usually uncovers some interesting information, as was the case here. The point is, even if we downgrade one of two participants to the “dumbass” category, that’s still ok, as that’s how people learn.

I’m in healthcare, and often get challenged with questions people pull off the internet, without the requisite background to get into a complex dialogue. But that’s okay, because even in that scenario, something of value will be gleaned.
 
Posts
5
Likes
3
(Crestfallen to discover the engine in my VW Golf was not built by Rudolf Diesel.)
 
Posts
1,764
Likes
5,551
great discussions guys. i probably made a mistake of buying an all original, still unserviced, 321 cb66.105-012.1506.16 for $1,500 in 2006. maybe, i'll just sell it in the few days for$2,500.