I've been a Lemania enthusiast for almost two decades now, but today I stumbled upon something I had never seen before in a French online classified:

Chrono Longines Vintage

I had never seen a Lemania 1341 powered Longines chronograph before, and Google was no help in finding any similar example. So I was wondering if anybody here had seen one of these before.

Funny how this hobby still manages to bring us surprises...

 

I don't think that this is an authentic Longines, but I am happy to be proven wrong. Posting photos for posterity.







https://www.leboncoin.fr/montres_bijoux/2262709731.htm

 

I too thought about the possibility of this watch being a Franken of some sort, with no single part belonging to a Longines. But every time, I go back to one question: if it's some kind of fake, why go through the trouble of engraving the rotor on the movement on a watch with a solid caseback? I'd be more inclined to believe that this is some kind of unproduced prototype from the 1990s that somehow found its way to the wild.

 

Also the minute counter hand from the center looks unique for a 1341/5100 to me. I also have never seen a second, but it all looks like it belongs together. I wont agree with 90s, but end of 70s, early 80s, when the whole industry struggled, a lot of variants were build among the watch companies.

 

I'd buy the 1980's, but stylistically I'm not seeing this watch belonging to the 70s, even in their last years. But it's just a gut feeling on my part.

 

What a bizarre one. I'd like a good photo of the crown, inner caseback, and signature.

 

I think that this question is answered by the sales listing. Vintage watch buyers typically want to see photos of the movement before buying a watch, and an unmarked movement would be an obvious giveaway that the watch is not correct. I would be very reluctant to conclude that this is a prototype without strong evidence. In my experience, there are far more fake/fantasy watches than actual prototypes.

I think that a potentially fruitfull course of action would be to look for known original examples from the late 1970s-1990s and compare their movement, case, and dial markings with this one. To start, below are three examples of Longines chronographs from the 1990s (I believe). As you can see, all three have certain markings on the outside of the case-back (e.g. serial number reference number, case material). Given that these markings are absent from the outside of the case-back on the Lemania example, I would guess that the watch is not from the 1990s.

1990s example 1, serial 25'599'316


https://www.ebay.com/itm/3141523896...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557Purchases made through these links may earn this site a commission from the eBay Partner Network

1990s example 2, serial obscured


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1856207892...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557Purchases made through these links may earn this site a commission from the eBay Partner Network

1990s example 3, serial 27'810'222




https://www.tooveys.com/lots/392368/a-longines-conquest-quartz-two-colour-stainless-steel-cased/

Below are two examples from the 1980s (I believe). Both examples have serial numbers on the outside of their case-backs. The apparent absence of such a marking on the Lemania example could be the result of wear over time, so it is not crucial (IMO). However, I notice that both movements below have clearly visible Longines caliber designations. The absence of such a designation on the Lemania example strikes me as suspicious.

Additionally, the 7-digit number on the rotor of the Lemania example also raises a red flag. Since 1969, Longines used consecutive serial numbers (marked on the case) that began at 15'000'000, and movement numbers that began at 50'000'000. The number on the Lemania example is 3'509'765.

1980s example 1, serial 17'113'880(?)




https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/26675...&utm_campaign=Watches-COM#gallery&gid=1&pid=7

1980s example 2, serial 18'668'063(?)





https://wannabuyawatch.com/product/longines-18k-yg-chronograph-circa-1980s/

 

I'll defer to your superior knowledge of the brand and its output.

But my own area of "expertise" is centered on Lemania-powered chronograph, and I don't recall ever seeing any with that combination of dial and hands. That's why I'm so intrigued, because I usually can easily place the source of each individual component on a suspect watch. Not this time.

 

Nice display of contemporary examples. I will say that they put some thought into the rotor if it's a fake, though. It's in the same format as legit examples. Then again, it's a fairly basic script and parts are not expensive for these.

 

Given your expertise, the fact that you have not seen a Lemania-powered chrongraph with this combination of dial and hands leads me to the position of skepticism about the originality/authenticity of the watch. The observations and information that I mentioned about Longines seem to point in the same direction. However, as you mentioned, this hobby is full of surprises.

Thanks for sharing these photos. Maybe @Pascal S can confirm/deny that the 7-digit numbers on the rotors are from Lemania? I wonder how common rotors without a brand name are?

 

The seven digits are here too. Here is the watch this movement is mounted on:

 

Thank you for the response, and beautiful watch! So, it seems that the number comes from Lemania.

 

You're most welcome.

Curiosity got the better of me, so I sent the seller a message asking him if he had the original box and papers for this watch. I also asked to be provided with a close-up shot of the crown and the inside of the caseback. We'll see if I get any reply...

 

The answer is very simple, you need the seller to send you a picture of the movement showing the Longines movement serial number to query Longines and get an extract of archive.

 

I look forward to the seller's response.

@Syrte Your're right, but isn't this beating around the bush more fun?

 

Even that is not perfect! All it would tell you is if the movement is authentic and if it was placed in a stainless steel case (along with a few other small details). Unless Longines' records are more generous for later years.

 

It would tell you this very particular movement belongs to a Longines watch. Wasn’t that the answer to the question?
Since Longines will also need a picture of the engravings inside the case back, suddenly a lot will become clearer…

You’re right, sorry I’m just so much more lazy than you are. I’m impressed with all of the unexpected Longines watches you were able to whip up here.

 

I think the broader question of the watch's originality is in question. But you're right - all other questions are secondary compared to the movement in this case.

 

Confirmed: it's a franken.

Courtesy of the seller, here is the picture of the inside of the caseback.

Not only did it originally belong to a gold plated watch, I actually know which one. As it happens, ref 9803 is the Lemania case reference for the cushion-shaped chronograph I attached a picture of in an earlier post. You can find further examples through a quick Chrono24 search.

I'm still mildly intrigued by the dial and handset, or the engraved rotor, but I'm now perfectly confident that this watch is something that Longines probably has no knowledge about.

 

@Pascal S Thank you for inquiring and sharing the photo here. And it is great that you were able to recognize the case-back!

Maybe this explains the subtly gold-toned pushers.

I am posting this example for posterity. Along with the gold-toned pushers, which seem to match the "Longines" example's, the rotor has no brand name above "Swiss". This would make it a possible candidate for adding a "Longines" marking.




https://www.chrono24.fr/lemania/lemania-chronograph-1341-vintage--id26281273.htm