King Seiko 36000bph(45XX) vs 28800bph(5626)

[mseamaster]

How much more desirable are the 36000 bph models? I am eyeing a nice 5626(28800 bph), but I wonder if it's worth it. I really like how it looks like, but I wonder if 5626 is a good movement.

 

[impalla62ss]

FIFY

 

[ken_hodson]

I'd say both are equally good quality movements. There are pros and cons of manual wind Vs automatic and likewise 36000 Vs 28800.
Personally, I prefer automatic and if you've found a good example and it's running ok and you like it, then I'd go for that...but everyone's different. Both are good movements, but if you have a particular desire for manual wind or 36000bph then that may sway you.

 

[mseamaster]

How much would servicing a mint 5626 watch cost? I wonder if there's any chance I could service it myself if I buy it? I care a lot about accuracy.

 

[Dan S]

I don't think that desirability is currently correlated very much with beat-rate, although it was a selling point at the time. Other things make watches collectible. Personally, I would be focusing on grammar of design pieces if I were going to start a vintage KS collection.

 

[mseamaster]

I already have a non-Seiko 28800 movement btw, and I can't say it looks much more fluid than a Seiko 21600 movement. Still a bit choppy.
I am wondering if 36000 will make such a difference. I want to see real smooth seconds.

That being said, right now I don't have any equipment or knowledge to service a movement. I am still compiling a list of tools. And it will be a long time, me destroying lots crappy movements in bad condition before I ever feel comfortable to touch something valuable. The official Seiko distributor near me doesn't even have parts for vintage Seikos which is downright disappointing and they charge 75 € for servicing a 4R36. I could buy a new movement and swap it for cheaper.
So I am wondering in general how hard would it be to learn to service KS myself?

What does grammar of design pieces mean?

 

[Dan S]

mseamaster

What does grammar of design pieces mean?

Google "seiko grammar of design" and you will learn a lot about collectible vintage Seiko. Watches are more than movements.

 

[Deafboy]

Good site on diy servicing vintage Seiko.

 

[Deafboy]

mseamaster

and they charge 75 € for servicing a 4R36.

That's pretty inexpensive to service a mechanical watch (or maybe they just plop a new movement and call it a day... 😀).

 

[mseamaster]

They told me they would lubricate and replace parts but it seems like a timewaste to do that for a 4R36, when you can just pop in a new movement.

But when I asked about Vintage Seiko, they told me they don't have parts for anything that's 20+ years... they checked in some global Seiko catalog and were like: "Buy a new watch instead.". To which I said: "I like the look on the old ones." 😁

And I dig the whole KS/GS from the 60-70s.

 

[S.H.]

Lots of parts are out of stock in the official seiko system, and they don't produce new ones for obsolete models. Also, at least in Europe, the official seiko service center tends to refuse working on watches on which they lack readily available components...

Older KS are well made, neither easier nor harder to work on than other comparable watches. 562x are tough, I rarely saw worn parts. Lack of spares means you better not fumble unless you don't mind buying watches for scavenging.

 

[HamDoctor]

The 45xx movement series is super interesting in the history of Seiko - these were the (mechanical) movements that scored highest in the 1968 Neuchatel observatory trials, putting all of Swiss watchmaking behind them. The next year, the trials were shut down ... certainly for other reasons ;-)

I love having a manual wind 36,000 vph. There have been people saying that the Lord Marvel 5740C high-beat movement has an even smoother sweep, but I really don't know how this would work, as they both run at the same frequency. Still, something to keep in mind while exploring.

There is one thing that is seen as a bit of a weak spot with the 45xx movement series: they use a lot of torque to keep the movement running, so there can be a lot of stress on the gear train. It is recommended not to wind them completely up to the max. Personally, I haven't had a problem, but it is something I read on occasion.

Here's a link to a discussion on a 45-8010 service:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/king-seiko-45-8010-chronometer.160997/

You may also find this interesting:
https://www.beyondthedial.com/post/king-seiko-collector-guide-part-2/

 

[S.H.]

About the 45ks series : buy one in good shape or well priced, because the torque can eat the gear train... And you end up buying two to have a working one. Ask me how I know. Not a problem in my experience for the 28800bph 56ks series.

 

[mseamaster]

Lots of useful information. Thanks everyone. The servicing on the 45ks doesn't look too bad, but polishing those small parts sounds complicated.

Considering the 45ks, let's suppose the watch has accuracy of 1s +- a day. Is that an indication that it has been serviced/not worn out?

Btw reading about the 56ks, it seems they have a problematic plastic star-shaped date corrector wheel - 870563. Specifically 5625/5626. 5621 not having date seems to be unaffected.

 

[HamDoctor]

If the watch is running at +- 1s/d it can be an indicator that someone recently serviced it. But it isn't a 100% certainty - a watch can run really well (as in, precise), and still be in dire need of new oil. A better indicator is the amplitude, but these do differ quite a bit between movements (high-beat Seikos tend to have lower amplitudes even serviced).

Yes, the date corrector wheel is a bugbear of the 56xx movement series. There are aftermarket steel replacement parts that you can buy, though.

 

[Dan S]

A single "accuracy" number really doesn't indicate much. At the very least, you would want to measure timekeeping in various positions, amplitude, etc. And also inspect the movement to see if lubricant is present. Even after that, there's no way to know if the movement has been maintained well over the years, and some parts could need replacement.
Having bought hundreds of old watches, I can tell you that it's a crapshoot, there's just no way to know what has happened over 50-80 years of life. Sometimes you get lucky, the movement is in great shape, and all it needs is cleaning and lubrication. Other times you need to hunt down expensive parts. I recently bought a 1960s Seamaster in great cosmetic condition that was keeping excellent time, but it ended up needing new reverser wheels that were hard to find and ultimately cost me $150.

Obviously, you can minimize the risk by sticking with simpler no-date hand-winding watches. Anecdotally, I've found that calendar and auto-winding mechanisms often need repairs and parts.

Also, IMO it's a good idea to buy watches with enough collectible value to merit the repairs that might be needed. Watches that are desirable and in excellent cosmetic condition (clean dial, sharp case, etc). When you or your watchmaker inspect and disassemble a watch, you may easily find that it needs an additional $200 of parts/repairs beyond what you expected, which could put you upside-down on a low-value watch. In practice I find that easier to accept if it's a nice watch. The Seamaster I mentioned above is an example of this, I now have more into it than it's worth, but at least it was worth resurrecting.

Edited: May 4, 2024

 

[mseamaster]

@Dan S, thanks for sharing and confirming my suspicion - it's better to pick non-automatic without date and to stick to a few calibers so you can stock parts and learn them. As opposed to going all over the place.

But then, you're also saying that even if a watch is super accurate in multiple positions, it may still be that it's worn out/not lubricated. Do you have to disassemble the watch to tell or is just opening thr caseback enough to tell?

 

[Dan S]

mseamaster

@Dan S, thanks for sharing and confirming my suspicion - it's better to pick non-automatic without date and to stick to a few calibers so you can stock parts and learn them. As opposed to going all over the place.

But then, you're also saying that even if a watch is super accurate in multiple positions, it may still be that it's worn out/not lubricated. Do you have to disassemble the watch to tell or is just opening thr caseback enough to tell?

It's possible to do a cursory inspection for lubrication by opening the caseback and viewing the movement under magnification. At least you can tell if the oil is totally dried up. But honestly, it's still a crapshoot and I wouldn't rule out dry watches or watches that aren't running well, those can be great watches.

I've purchased many dry and unserviced watches that only needed a simple COA, presumably because they had just been stored in a drawer for many years. As a collector, these can be some of the best watches, because they haven't been tampered with, yet they are still easy to resurrect, even if they aren't running well. I recently bought a non-runner that was in great condition other than a broken mainspring. Most likely the mainspring broke, and the owner just put it away. I took a risk on that one and it worked out. Other times, someone will keep using a watch without servicing it, and the parts develop a lot of wear. Some movements are very robust and will run and keep good time for decades, and owners take the if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it attitude.

The best you can do is to inspect the watch, run some diagnostics, ask about the history (but take the answer with a grain of salt), and use your judgement. You win some and you lose some.

Edited: May 4, 2024

 

[mseamaster]

I see. Hopefully I will start gathering skills and knowledge once I gather enough watches and tools.

Presuming a watch (5626 based) is running very inaccurately(40+ seconds gain) which should be chronometer certified(and be more like 1-3 s), what do you think is the most likely reason?

I am on the fence about getting a 5626 watch which is very nice on the outside, but it has 40s+ daily gain.

The two things putting me off:
- the star wheel on 5626 that's said to be finicky
- the huge gain of 40s+

 

[Dan S]

It's impossible to say what is the most likely reason for +40s timekeeping without more information, any original chronometer certification is irrelevant. Unlikely, but it could even be something as minor as magnetization or debris/oil in the hairspring.

TBH, I think you just need to dive in and start learning by doing, there's only so much you can learn by speculation and superficial measures like overall timekeeping. If you're not comfortable with that watch, buy a different one but accept the fact that there are no guarantees. Once you have bought and sold a dozen watches, you will look back on this thread and have a much different perspective.