IWC Dial Check (Originality)

gatorcpa · Dec 8, 2016

Just found this old catalog page with a two-tone Ingenieur model

So at least we know the style is legit. Case looks similar to both of the watches above as well.
gatorcpa

gatorcpa · Dec 8, 2016

Found another two-tone dial in an old catalog. This one from 1957:

Not sure if it is the correct reference though. I believe that leuchtpunkten are radium dots.
gatorcpa

cchen · Dec 9, 2016

Great finds but I don't think they answer the question.

@vintagecaliber said they're all re-dials. I would think to believe him since he deals in these vintage IWC's.

So again, what are the signs?

Modest_Proposal · Dec 9, 2016

cchen
Great finds but I don't think they answer the question.

@vintagecaliber said they're all re-dials. I would think to believe him since he deals in these vintage IWC's.

So again, what are the signs?

We all deal in these vintage IWC's. And some members have even tried to pull up evidence.

Vintagecaliber might be right. I wish he'd elaborated with his response. But many of the people who are agnostic about the originality of the dial are vintage IWC collectors, too. This has been an open question to me for a long time. I've seen this script type many times in the past years and I'm curious one way or the other.

If vintagecaliber could elucidate, it would be helpful.

cchen · Dec 9, 2016

Modest_Proposal
We all deal in these vintage IWC's. And some members have even tried to pull up evidence.

Vintagecaliber might be right. I wish he'd elaborated with his response. But many of the people who are agnostic about the originality of the dial are vintage IWC collectors, too. This has been an open question to me for a long time. I've seen this script type many times in the past years and I'm curious one way or the other.

If vintagecaliber could elucidate, it would be helpful.

I meant, he buys and sells these regularly... he's a dealer

Modest_Proposal · Dec 9, 2016

cchen
I meant, he buys and sells these regularly... he's a dealer

Vintagecaliber: I need to emphasis emphatically - This is nothing against you. I am making a general statement.

Being a dealer of vintage watches doesn't impress upon me any additional layer of authority. Evidence is king. Especially considering the number of respected collectors who have commented.

ulackfocus · Dec 9, 2016

If in doubt, consider it a redial. One, it's VERY rare to see these pre-1960 dials in pristine condition. Two, a redialer in Philadelphia was in my first watchmaker's shop one day and I had an opportunity to chat with him a few minutes. Some of the dies are easy to come by and really accurate, some are next to impossible to source anything decent. IWC's cursive logo was one that was readily available and most were really good quality.

I'd want to see high quality macros shot from a few angles to see if the ink has some depth to it. You can see reflections of light off the sides and the roundness to the ink in originals and good redials. They're also very crisp. Redials are flat and sloppy.

Tony C. · Dec 9, 2016

@Modest_Proposal is correct: being a "dealer" doesn't guarantee accuracy in assessments.

Having said that, as @ulackfocus has pointed out, dials that clean should almost reflexively be treated with skepticism.

cchen · Dec 9, 2016

Certainly agreed. Just meant he (or she) said they were all redials, and the IWC's he sold he's said have been original dials, so I'd like to know how to tell.

Modest_Proposal · Dec 9, 2016

I agree that perfect dials should be given special skeptical attention (though some of the examples I showed seemed to have patina of some kind). But I'm waiting for something more substantial.

ulackfocus · Dec 9, 2016

@MPWATCH recently posted an excellent example of what I mean by the ink being rounded. You can see the depth it has due to the reflections on the sides:

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cchen · Dec 9, 2016

Found this on the IWC forums. Seems a lot of focus is on the IWC script and how Schaffhausen is aligned. Helping me get a picture of what to look for....

ulackfocus · Dec 9, 2016

That reference 1832 (right side 2nd down) is an original dial?

DirtyDozen12 · Dec 9, 2016

cchen
Just meant he (or she) said they were all redials, and the IWC's he sold he's said have been original dials

A number of dealers get away with selling watches that are incorrectly advertised as having original dials. Also, one can sell watches with dials that are correctly advertised as original and still lack the knowledge that is required to assess a difficult(?) dial such as the OP's. Lastly, one can possess the required knowledge to assess a difficult dial and still struggle to make a confident judgement based on photographs alone. Oh, and I suppose that one can also make mistakes.

kkt · Dec 9, 2016

U ulackfocus
@MPWATCH recently posted an excellent example of what I mean by the ink being rounded. You can see the depth it has due to the reflections on the sides:

Sorry for a stupid question, but if I don't ask, I remain stupid. Does the rounded ink indicate a redial, or an original?

ulackfocus · Dec 9, 2016

Don't forget to add that a LOT of sellers think they can claim "original dial" is the slab of metal is original regardless of the finish being original.

ulackfocus · Dec 9, 2016

kkt
Sorry for a stupid question, but if I don't ask, I remain stupid. Does the rounded ink indicate a redial, or an original?

Usually original, or at least a very high quality redial.

gatorcpa · Dec 9, 2016

Why are we so interested in pointing out redials? In the vintage Hamilton world, a good quality International Dial redial usually enhances value because they use the same process used on the originals and have most of the original dies. They were a contractor for Hamilton from the very early days.

I have a few 1950's dials that I know are original and are as clean as those two IWC's. Not all manufacturers used crappy lacquer like Omega did at that time. Not having radium dots or hands also helped preserve dials.

You know there really is only one way to find out for sure if these are redials.
gatorcpa

timeismoney · Dec 9, 2016

Here is one of mine @Modest_Proposal i have been trying to figure out whether it is redial or not on this one as the L and the W also are very close. I noticed that some of the dots don't really align with the dial furniture plus that the Swiss or Swiss made is missing. I did read somewhere someone stated that Swiss is not always on the dial, I started looking at other dials and found quite a few examples that their minute dots don't really line up but most of them has Swiss or swiss made on it. In any case, don't mean to hijack the thread but I am leaning that my dial could be a re-dial. In any case, I still love it as it is with all its imperfections. I guess my point is that yours look pretty awesome, provided you didn't over paid, just enjoy it!

Giff2577 · Dec 9, 2016

timeismoney

Here is one of mine @Modest_Proposal i have been trying to figure out whether it is redial or not on this one as the L and the W also are very close. I noticed that some of the dots don't really align with the dial furniture plus that the Swiss or Swiss made is missing. I did read somewhere someone stated that Swiss is not always on the dial, I started looking at other dials and found quite a few examples that their minute dots don't really line up but most of them has Swiss or swiss made on it. In any case, don't mean to hijack the thread but I am leaning that my dial could be a re-dial. In any case, I still love it as it is with all its imperfections. I guess my point is that yours look pretty awesome, provided you didn't over paid, just enjoy it!

Great looking IWC! The hands have slots for lume but the dial has no lume. Does that suggest a redial or replaced hands? I also am gathering info on these dials.

IWC Dial Check (Originality)

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