Is Rolex honest about their production volume?

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Ok here is what went down.

Rolex had hundreds of thousands of Datejust watches in China ( preferred watch of Chinese for gifting and wearing )
China cracks down on giving of gifts and has a economic slowdown
Same time Gucci and luxury brands are destroying unsold stock
Rolex decides to slow production of SS watches until all the excess stock is sold
ie) buy 3 datejust watches get the SS you want.

There was and is no large amount of SS sports models in China. Anyone having been there in the last few year would testify so.

Add above to it being wise to slow production to give Tudor a foot hold into the American market that it had been out of for many years.

The lack of SS sport models is a Marketing strategy not a uptake in popularity


Why would a Rolex store in Sydney that would usually sell over 250 subs a year be battling to get 25 ( from the horses mouth that works there )
Why would shops that had 50 in Dubai in 2013 have one in two tone only
Why is there heaps of threads from watch guys like us about no stock
Why are there always heaps of Rolex at grey market places ( how do you know people are actually snapping them up for double MSRP )
 
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Was at La Cantera shopping area in San Antonio today. Visited the Omega Boutique and they had a full selection of all regular models, plus plenty of NATO straps, bracelets, key chains and the like. Totally stocked. Two doors down was the Rolex Boutique.....showcases 80% empty with some selection of ladies and mid-size stainless DJ's and one or two solid gold models (one a Sky Dweller). Two large show windows out front had ONE lonely steel Rolex in each window. They asked if they could show me anything and I just replied 'you don't have anything available that I'm interested in', to which they just chuckled. I get the whole Rolex shortage but it just seemed a bit creepy. Omega = complete availability, Rolex = no availability. Rolex is number 5 on the list of most valuable luxury brands at $8.4 billion....they do know how to brand themselves, no doubt about that.
 
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Luxury brands destroy unsold products to maintain exclusivity through scarcity. This practice is not new and not a one time incident. It happens every year.

Fully understood, but the scale of what was seen a few years ago was the major factor for quoting this.
When watch magazines and blogs are quoting the precedent of no Rolex stock anywhere and hundreds of members here that are well travelled also noticing the same. There has to be a reason why there is no stock.

I have just put my hypothesis forward on the information I have seen being a well seasoned watch enthusiast.
 
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Now we’re getting somewhere.

Hate that had to happen to @TechFounder’s thread 😗
 
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Maybe asking a different way gets me there:

Your theory seems to be that (1) some ADs (in saturated markets) couldn’t sell at MSRP, so they sold to grey at well below MSRP (because ADs couldn’t sell online); (2) those grey watches then sold below MSRP online, meaning the remaining ADs (outside of saturated markets) now also couldn’t sell at MSRP; so (3) Rolex made fewer watches in order that ADs in saturated markets had fewer to sell, bringing those ADs back to MSRP, and so choking off the grey buyers.

Is that about right?

Still seems a very round-about way to do things. Also doesn’t explain why (A) there now aren’t nearly enough watches available at MSRP (did Rolex overshoot the goal?), and (B) the grey still seems to be thriving (did Rolex’s plan fail?).

Yes.

but grey market is dead. Grey market is below msrp selling over stock at discount. Flippers are selling over MsRP. They might be the same people. But now the prices of watches has gone up and dealers are no longer having to dump pieces under msrp. Rolex corrects the market and then brings production back up when secondary market prices fall down to MSRP. Which is exactly what I predicted 3 years ago and is now apparently happening now that flippers are making little profit now.
Edited:
 
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I've witnessed the opposite. The average number of Rolex Sports models owned by watch collectors I know has significantly increased over the past 3-4 years. In fact, collectors and greys alike (including small town jewelers) have been hoarding SS Rolex watches like never before. A local jeweler I do business with currently has 5 GMTs for sale. He never used to have more than one example of the same reference. Also, only the white dial Daytona sells at about twice MRSP as far as I'm aware. Hulks, GMTs, Sky-Dwellers and other hot references sell for only about 50% above. A regular Sub won't cost you much more than MRSP. Explorers, Air-Kings, Milgausses and Yacht-Masters actually sell for less than MSRP. Shortage at ADs but abundance everywhere else, that's what I'm seeing.

Agree with you on your above observations. It’s watches at Rolex stores is the crux of this thread 😉
 
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It’s watches at Rolex stores is the crux of this thread 😉

Fair enough. I digressed a little.
 
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I'm trying to unpack what most people, including their executives, have been using as an excuse for a lack of inventory at ADs: that Rolex is producing 10-15% more than their normal supply of 1 million watches per year but that's still not enough. The coronavirus seems like the perfect foil in testing the veracity of that statement. When stores are closed and people are afraid of death, sales of luxury goods like watches goes to pretty much zero. Since HK and China makes up about 20%+ of Rolex sales, that means for the past two plus months, they would have had about 40k watches diverted. The only reason I can see for those inventory not showing up in the rest of the world is that Rolex is not actually producing over 1 million watches a year. That they're producing far less. But why would they produce far less than normal in a market with shortages when there's nothing stopping them from doing so? The only rational explanation I can come up with is to create a premium distortion in their prices. In other words, Rolex is directly responsible for creating this supply/demand imbalance and the huge gray market.

As others have pointed out, Rolex doesn’t benefit IN ANY WAY from driving up demand. The inflated prices on the secondary or gray markets does not net Rolex any extra revenue because they aren’t making those sales. And the limited supply to the ADs also reduces their revenue and potentially drives existing or prospective customers to other brands. And of course, it generally frustrates buyers who just want to buy new Rolexes. So your “rational” explanation is not rational at all, given that you haven’t actually pointed out a single direct, tangible benefit to Rolex.
 
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Also, only the white dial Daytona sells at about twice MRSP as far as I'm aware. Hulks, GMTs, Sky-Dwellers and other hot references sell for only about 50% above.

You know the normalization phase of this plan has kicked in when people start saying the watches are selling for "only" 50% above MSRP...

Plan the work, and work the plan - Rolex are masters at it.
 
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Rolex doesn’t benefit IN ANY WAY from driving up demand. The inflated prices on the secondary or gray markets does not net Rolex any extra revenue because they aren’t making those sales.

If you think for one second that the buzz generated by supply-driven exclusivity isn't good for a brand, you need to go hit a 100-level marketing course at your local community college.

Your point on revenue is relevant and correct, but to say Rolex doesn't benefit "IN ANY WAY" is a fallacy.
 
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To be fair, it’s getting increasingly hard to.



If a watch costs $[X], then to achieve your asserted tactic and achieve an increase in profit: for every unit taken out of inventory a remaining inventory unit must be sold at >2$[X]. And to make significantly more profit, the remaining unit must be sold at >>2$[X].

Before and during the current bubble Rolex predictably (like other brands) increased unit costs every 2 years or so, by a matter of percentage points. They did not, however, in the last few years (this bubble) increase the per unit price by >2[X].

Basic maths, man.



Have the decency to check even basic data:



So, over the past twenty years:

> fewer electronic watches have sold (but the ones that have, are more expensive per unit)
> mechanical watch sales have increased ~150%
> mechanical watch value by unit have increased 300%
> overall Swiss watch exports have decreased ~50% by unit (because of electronic unit declines), but increased by value ~100%

More people are wearing more watches that are more expensive; and the winners are both mechanicals and smart watches (which are replacing basic electronic/quartz market, not mechanical).

In all: no.
Sorry, I've been super busy with the markets falling out of bed lately. It looks like the pandemic is fully in effect. We still have empty shelves at stores. It's looking more and more like Rolex reduced production/inventory.

So, if you look at the Exports of Swiss watches electronic and mechanical chart you can clearly see that mechanical watch sales have plateaued. The growth of the market goes from 2000 all the way to 2015. Then Bam, it hits a wall. You can also see that the value of those same amount of watches have been going up from 2015 which is exactly the scenario I've pointed out earlier (you could argue that it's due to product mix but unlikely). That is, instead of growing the market, they are increasing prices in order to juice their revenues. This is also the gist of my post which is not that "Rolex was simultaneously making but also not making inventory" but that they're reducing production/inventory to get in front of the inevitable future while simultaneously spreading the propaganda that they're making more. That the shortage is entirely due to overwhelming demand when this shortage was entirely of their creation.

I use to be a portfolio manager and I can't tell you how many times management of companies will come in and lie directly to your face. In securities analysis, there's a practice called mosaic theory. The idea is to look at publicly available information that's available to anyone and deduce the truth. If that truth is different than what's generally known by the market, you stand to make money. While I'm not looking to make money (Short Richemont's stock! ) from a trade here, I do smell BS when I get a whiff of it. There's enough evidence out there for anyone who cares to look that Rolex is playing games.

Come on, do you really think it's just a coincidence that just when OCSC gets pushed to stop breaking down their numbers after 2015 also happens to be when this huge demand for Rolex watches came about? You can see that in 2016, right after the OCSC blackout, there was a big drop in production the following year. Then, two years later Richemont had to buy back some 500 million Euros of inventory. You know what that's called? Channel stuffing! It's another one of those tricks manufacturers pull when demand goes down. Unlike Rolex, Richemont is a public company and they do have to make the numbers and report their actions. This tells you the demand for mechanical watches headed south after 2015. Or, do you really believe that only Richemont experienced lower demand?

I know it's hard for you to understand what's happening because you probably don't realize the implications of a product like Apple Watch on future sales but here it is in a nutshell. This is going a bit off topic but it's pertinent if you want to know where the Swiss watch industry is headed and thinking about. This is what keeps them up at night.

The arrival of the Apple Watch is not at all like the 70's and 80's arrival of the quartz and digital watches. Unlike those quartz and digital complements, the Apple Watch seeks to create an entirely new category. It no longer revolves around just telling time, date, reminders. The future of the fight for the placement as the device on your wrist has begun. For Apple Watch and others like it is about healthcare. It's about having a medical diagnostic device strapped to your wrist monitoring your health 24/7 for only $300-$400 every few years. As technology continues to improve, the diagnostic capabilities of the watch will continue to get better and cover more metrics. In the coming years, you'll be able to monitor all sorts of your health stats by strapping on an Apple Watch. Mechanical watches will never be able to compete with this. Unlike the 70's and 80's complements, this is about substitutes. Since most people only wear one watch it's going to a bit like Highlander, there can be only one. No one is going to only care about their health on certain days of the week while they strap on their mechanical watch. Once the Apple Watch reaches that functional threshold where a majority of people think that they want it to monitor a certain aspect of their health, they will wear it all the time. So you tell me where does this leave the lonely Swiss mechanical watch?

Not only that but you can already see that most millennials and younger no longer wear watches. If they do, they wear an Apple Watch. Do you really expect them to go from being able to do all of those futuristic things like monitor their health to go buy something that costs 10-20 times more just so they can only use it to tell time? I'm sure there will always be those people but like the Leica buyers, they are a tiny group and getting smaller all the time. If the future, Leica customers will consist of 100 customers willing to pay $50k for a digital camera ::rimshot::.

Side note, I could be completely wrong and miss out on the future trend of people wearing 2 watches. In fact, I was thinking of doing this when I acquire an Apple Watch, wear my mechanical on my left and the Apple Watch on the right. I doubt that this will ever come about but we'll see.
Edited:
 
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As others have pointed out, Rolex doesn’t benefit IN ANY WAY from driving up demand. The inflated prices on the secondary or gray markets does not net Rolex any extra revenue because they aren’t making those sales. And the limited supply to the ADs also reduces their revenue and potentially drives existing or prospective customers to other brands. And of course, it generally frustrates buyers who just want to buy new Rolexes. So your “rational” explanation is not rational at all, given that you haven’t actually pointed out a single direct, tangible benefit to Rolex.

What do they have to benefit? You must be joking right? How about continue to sell a product that's seeing lower demand at ever higher prices to make up for the revenue shortfall? You do that by manipulating the market, namely, you. As Warren Buffet likes to say, "if you walk into a room and you don't know who the sucker is, you're the sucker."
 
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You know the normalization phase of this plan has kicked in when people start saying the watches are selling for "only" 50% above MSRP...

Plan the work, and work the plan - Rolex are masters at it.

That's right! You get an A+!
 
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I know it's hard for you to understand what's happening because you probably don't realize the implications of a product like Apple Watch on future sales but here it is in a nutshell

GMAFB

Don’t get out over your skis: all this claptrap you’re peddling backwards into now had nothing to do with your claims I’ve pushed on. First: your stating that Rolex was both making and also not making inventory simultaneously, as proven by the fact that Chinese inventory is not yet in [Florida]. Second, claiming that mechanical Swiss watch sales have been in “a long term decline.”

Otherwise, I’ve only pointed out when your other assertions are 100% armchair prognostication - some or most could be right, but that will be determined by the actual facts rather than your having said the words beforehand.

Let’s just hope that the “Tech” you “founded” is not in the healthcare sector.
 
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GMAFB

Don’t get out over your skis: all this claptrap you’re peddling backwards into now had nothing to do with your claims I’ve pushed on. First: your stating that Rolex was both making and also not making inventory simultaneously, as proven by the fact that Chinese inventory is not yet in [Florida]. Second, claiming that mechanical Swiss watch sales have been in “a long term decline.”

Otherwise, I’ve only pointed out when your other assertions are 100% armchair prognostication - some or most could be right, but that will be determined by the actual facts rather than your having said the words beforehand.

Let’s just hope that the “Tech” you “founded” is not in the healthcare sector.

No, you said Rolex was both making and also not making inventory simultaneously, I didn't. I said, the coronavirus seems like the perfect foil in testing the veracity of the statement that Rolex is producing more but seeing overwhelming demand. Please go back and read the first page of this post. Since the Asian supply never materialize elsewhere, we could make the assumption that production/inventory is way below what they've been historically as 25% is a whole lot of supply for a company like Rolex to just disappear. All the evidence points to them reducing production/supply drastically after 2015 to create this so called shortage. That's why the stores are empty. And I'm not just talking about missing SS watches, I'm talking about empty as in only showing 25-30% of their normal stock. Again, you realize how much demand there would have to be in order to create that kind of shortage on a worldwide basis for a producer as large as Rolex? Especially after 2015 when demand is heading south? As more and more countries shut down and people stop buying fancy items like expensive mechanical watches, let's see how much supply shows up at you local dealers that are still open. At what point will you believe what I've been saying? How about when 50% of their markets shut down and you still don't see supply in the remaining 50%? Will that prove my point?
 
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Guys it’s simple. For years Rolex as a non tax paying non profit ha funneled it’s extra money into a secret Swiss bio weapons program to protect the Swiss. They are uniquely able to prevent all travel in and out.

the virus is simple aimed at the Chinese market to stop them from buying watches and restoring balance to the west.
 
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really? Watch, you’re about to say it again:

I feel like I'm arguing with a kid who just says 'no' after you give him/her rational as to why something is the way it is without offering any counter arguments as to why the answer is no. That's surely a winning strategy in moot court? How about we do it this way. Please cite some evidence that demand for Rolex is so overwhelming that even after losing 25% of their market demand that Rolex still can't even stock their own stores in the rest of the world. Feel free to point to any proxy such as Omega with production numbers as high as Rolex as an example or any other stats you want to use.
 
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I don't understand the shortage. I picked up a BLNR and a Daytona within the last four months.

really we should all be asking this guy what the secret is. how many other things did you buy from your AD?

euQpgW_dqESrwAW2iljv2SqunTP7vzyH_w9Q-4uEosdfcmS_XHYUF-D5nJdFp9-cwtJhQ6Uk9mndU7wHbYUADPwQ3p4L1RjpPIN9a3Buom31jHnuCHlOJweGcBblZthC0CeCo1Qkyd6tjYJKCszSHn7Sllas3R9rWic
 
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I feel like I'm arguing with a kid who just says 'no' after you give him/her rational as to why something is the way it is without offering any counter arguments as to why the answer is no."

I'm not re-responding in depth only because you haven't bothered to read or understand my initial comments in the first place.

How about we do it this way. Please cite some evidence that demand for Rolex is so overwhelming that even after losing 25% of their market demand that Rolex still can't even stock their own stores in the rest of the world. Feel free to point to any proxy such as Omega with production numbers as high as Rolex as an example or any other stats you want to use.

The thing you don't appear capable of grasping is: I don't disagree that Rolex's production levels are questionable/low (never have disagreed with this anywhere in this thread, despite your yammering on as if I have), that the market turn will have negative impacts on the Swiss watch industry, etc. (again, never disagreed). In fact, if you had taken a moment to read my prior posts linked for you in my very first comment to this thread, this all would have been obvious.

Instead what I'm disagreeing with are certain of the "evidence" you keep attempting to cite (and then thereafter revising incrementally over time to become more and more rational, as though that makes your original point less irrational).

With the Coronavirus fears and containment in full swing, Asian markets have come to a complete stop .... If Rolex was telling the truth [about its production], this would have more than stocked the shelves of ADs in the rest of the world. However, a quick check of ADs in the rest of the would shows that they still have empty shelves.

Initial responses (from day 1) from me and others: (1) even if this line of deduction is correct, there is no reason to think that inventory would have moved global markets so quickly, and inventory from December to Febuary is instead much more likely to be currently stranded in Asia, and (2) inventory in Asia is largely not SS sports models, which lady datejusts, etc., are neither the subject of the shortage in non-Asian markets we care about, nor all that hard to find in non-Asian markets.

Then you just went on and on with more dumb observations ("mechanical watches have been in long, historical, fatal, decline") followed by back-peddling once showed the obvious counter-evidence ("what I meant was, they were increasing until 2015, and have since plateaued"), all peppered with additional bullsh*t color ("see the thing is, I'm far more intelligent than you, so from your bug-life perspective you can't see through the Matrix like me; after all I was in finance once).

I agree, @TechFounder is going to believe what he believes, he has convinced himself that Rolex is being dishonest and is causing the shortage on purpose for some corporate reason. You cannot reason with people who have made up their minds. I'm out.

Having now reiterated why @TechFounder has not merely just made up his mind, but in fact has a glitch in it - I, too, am out.
 
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I'm not re-responding in depth only because you haven't bothered to read or understand my initial comments in the first place.



The thing you don't appear capable of grasping is: I don't disagree that Rolex's production levels are questionable/low (never have disagreed with this anywhere in this thread, despite your yammering on as if I have), that the market turn will have negative impacts on the Swiss watch industry, etc. (again, never disagreed). In fact, if you had taken a moment to read my prior posts linked for you in my very first comment to this thread, this all would have been obvious.

Instead what I'm disagreeing with are certain of the "evidence" you keep attempting to cite (and then thereafter revising incrementally over time to become more and more rational, as though that makes your original point less irrational).



Initial responses (from day 1) from me and others: (1) even if this line of deduction is correct, there is no reason to think that inventory would have moved global markets so quickly, and inventory from December to Febuary is instead much more likely to be currently stranded in Asia, and (2) inventory in Asia is largely not SS sports models, which lady datejusts, etc., are neither the subject of the shortage in non-Asian markets we care about, nor all that hard to find in non-Asian markets.

Then you just went on and on with more dumb observations ("mechanical watches have been in long, historical, fatal, decline") followed by back-peddling once showed the obvious counter-evidence ("what I meant was, they were increasing until 2015, and have since plateaued"), all peppered with additional bullsh*t color ("see the thing is, I'm far more intelligent than you, so from your bug-life perspective you can't see through the Matrix like me; after all I was in finance once).



Having now reiterated why @TechFounder has not merely just made up his mind, but in fact has a glitch in it - I, too, am out.

First of all, you're the one who's putting words in other people's mouths. You said I said Rolex was both making and also not making inventory simultaneously. I didn't. You said that mechanical watches have been in long, historical, fatal, decline. I didn't. I said that unit sales have been in decline (you can check that post again and quote me correctly this time https://omegaforums.net/threads/is-...-production-volume.110431/page-3#post-1455714), which they have been for the past five years. Then, when I called you out on it you get in a sour mood as if I was the one who started down this road to nowhere. First, you twist people's words into some weird distorted ideas when you don't like the message. Then you decide to walk away when you're asked to back up your assertions, none of which are correct. You're a real scholar and a gentleman. Yes, I think you better stop here as well.