I'm involved in a transaction dispute with a dealer

Hello everyone, recently I am involved in a dispute with a watch dealer, after several rounds of email exchange, I started to think if it is me that is making troubles. I really need your help.

I saw the listing on instagram, the watch is in beautiful condition, the dial also looks in beautiful condition and is described as: "The dial itself is in outstanding good and untouched condition with no blemishes". The watch was listed on the dealer's website for 5300 euros.

I contacted the seller, he quoted me for 5500 euros for the watch, and 350 euros for the shipping from Germany to Asia. I counter offered 5300 euros for the watch (as listed on his website, I have no idea why he quoted me 5500 while listing it as 5300) and 100 euros for the shipping. He accepted it.

When I received the watch, it looks beautiful at first glance, but when I scrutinise the dial, I realise there is a scratch on the dial. Then I try to look at the images listed by the seller, I found that the area on the dial with the scratch, was blocked by the minute hand.

So I contacted the seller, request to return. I have purchased quite many watches and did have some of them returned, the sellers are always very helpful in the process. However, I didn't expect this time the process would be so complicated and I received some accusations from the seller that make me feel extremely disgusting.

Before I wrote my return request to the seller, I took some pictures of the dial as the evidence, the scratch is so big and obvious. To better view it, I also take some pictures under magnification.


The original pictures in the sellers listing:


So I wrote:
"
Hello xxx,

I received the watch yesterday evening. It looks lovely; however, I realise there is a scratch on the dial. Please refer to the images attached. When I checked the images in the listing, this scratch happened to be hidden by the hand.

I’m very picky in terms of watch collection, after a night of hesitation and consideration, I decide to have this watch returned. Please let me know how I shall proceed and if there is any processing fee.

I apologise for the inconvenience."


Although, I believe, the seller did not disclose this flaw in the advertisement, and I shall have the right to have it returned, I still offer to bear any processing fee incurred.

Then I received a reply from the seller, claiming that the scratch is on the plexi instead of the dial.

"Hello Rick,

happy to hear you have succesfully imported your watch to Singapore.

The dial of this piece was and is in beautiful condition with no minor scratches on it.
The ones you show are on the plexi and some little patina can always be found on every
Polerouter with that age. We both know this.
We have had dozents of them and this example is indeed a very clean one.

You have seen images and videos of it and wanted to purchase it, so that i had to refuse other inquiries
and potential buyers.
I hope for your understanding that a return can´t be made that easily just as we would be the fashion store right around the corner.
If you would let the plexi polish again from your watchmaker all shown scratches should be disappeared."


Of course the scratch is on the dial instead of on the plexi, so I replied with another email. I even help the seller propose an excuse to be able to sell it again:

"
Hello xxx,

I have collected a lot of watches, and I have a magnifier. I can assure you the scratch is definitely on the dial, otherwise I would not request to return it. You did send me the images but in those images the hand was just above the scratch and covered it.

I hope you can understand and accept my return request. You may reconnect to the potential buyers and stating that I forfeited the transaction due to custom issue."

It seems that this reply really ignited the seller. He replied as below:
"

Hello Rick,


I must admit that I find this request difficult to understand. We are a globally renowned and highly respected dealer and have no need to hide scratches or other imperfections in our photos and videos. I cannot recall a single customer ever being dissatisfied with a watch from us. All collectors understand that a watch that is over 50 years old, especially one with tropical patina, may have minor imperfections. We have had over 100 polerouters of our own and at least 1000 more in our hands. The watch you purchased is one of the best of all, with a wonderfully clean tropical dial, of course with some little patina like they all have. The case is unpolished. Something like this is rare to find in this condition and highly sought after.

You were determined to have the watch, asked me for a better price and for opaque shipping methods, which we normally refuse. Now you have received the watch and are examining it under a microscope to find problems that most collectors in the world would laugh at, and you are demanding that we compensate you for this pedantic behavior to our disadvantage. I would like to emphasize once again that all these facts serve only your own interests in full dimension and completely disregard the fact that in this industry, one should also respect one's business partner. I don't sense any of that here.

If you have indeed seen and purchased many watches, you must know that this Polerouter is exceptionally beautiful and in excellent overall condition. You will be able to find something that is not 100% perfect in every of those pieces, but you already knew that when you saw photos and videos of the watch and reservated it, so noone else could purchase it from us. Incidentally, the hand position is different in some photos and was also completely different in the videos. Any minor imperfections were therefore always visible to you. The problem is rather that you are now looking at the watch under a microscope and have already fixed your decision for a return, which doesn´t make it more sensefull in my eyes.

I must say that this experience is new to me in terms of a watch of this quality, and we have been supplying thousands of collectors worldwide for over 12 years. Had I known beforehand how you handle such watches, I would have refused to sell it to you. When you purchase such an item from the other side of the planet, you should be aware of certain conditions and that returning it involves a lot of effort and problems for your business partner.



However here are three options I can offer you:


1. I will take back the watch in accordance with our terms and conditions under European law (masked website URL). For this to be possible, the watch must be sent back to me from an address in Germany or at least the European Union only , just as we had sent it to you. You would therefore have to take care of the potential and official import to Europe yourself. We will definitely refuse a shipping from overseas as we hadn´t shipped there. In addition, as stated in point 7 of our terms and conditions, a processing and expense allowance of €500 will be deducted from the refund amount.


2. We will mark the watch as available again on our website and contact the other interested parties at the same time. If someone wants or still wants to buy the watch, wherever they are on the planet, you can send it, fully insured, directly to them, from whereever you are. We would act as a trustee and receive their payment from them in advance. As soon as the watch arrives with them in the same condition as i sended it to you, I would refund you the full amount you had paid to us.


3. To compensate for this minor mentioned inperfection, which I consider negligible, I am offering you a partial refund of €400. You can keep the watch and the matter will be settled. You can then resell it in Singapore for a profit of at least €1,000 or probably even more.


Please let me know how you would like to proceed.
"


I really cannot agree with the accusations in the reply:

1. The scratch does not require a magnifier to reveal it, it is definitely visible with naked eyes under normal light. I use magnifier to take better picture and illustrate the flaw. The flaw is definitely against the seller's advertisement: "The dial itself is in outstanding good and untouched condition with no blemishes". I understand a vintage watch cannot have perfect dial, but I just want to get what I paid for, and what is advertised.
2. I didn't asking for better price. I asked for what have be indicated on the website.


I just need your help to let me know, in this case, is it me who is being too picky, irritating or making troubles? If this is the case, I will keep the watch and apologize to the seller.

Otherwise, most likely I will have to accept option 2, because it is impossible for me to proceed with option 1 as I cannot ship it from an address in EU. Option 3 is never an option to me.


Thank you for your time for reading.

Strange behavior. Anyway I can assist with option 1 (although I don’t understand why you need to ship from a EU adress)

Who is the seller? They seem to be a bullshitter of the highest order.

A scratch like that is something that absolutely should be disclosed in a listing, and if a seller genuinely missed it (honest mistakes do happen) they should apologise and take a return immediately.

From their replies I’d wager there are two things at play.
1. They have a current cash flow issue.
2. They are concerned they will be liable for import duty into the EU, which they will have to pay initially then claim back. Not a simply process that will leave them temporarily out of pocket, further impacting any cash flow issue.

I’ve just realised who it is. Kinda surprised as although I’ve never dealt with them I had the impression they were a reputable seller.

It’s important to remember we only have one side of the story but given what’s detailed above, this doesn’t seem like an exchange I’d be anywhere near happy with.

Thank you very much Mark for your kind offer, and I will message you if I really need your help. The reason is, the seller send the watch to my German address (which is a shipping forwarder), so the seller expect the watch shall be returned in from a German address, to prevent any custom/tax issue.

I am also very surprised on this experience. I never expect a return process can be so tough, if so, then why would I buy from a dealer?? You may still be able to access the listing of this watch on their website though.

I have wishful thinking. I believe the seller wasn't trying to hide anything. The are quite a lot of the scratches in the pictures, but all of them are actually on the plexi, except the one I pointed out, and it is quite substantial.

General comment, not necessarily related to this watch but I also think it’s a bi/product of insta dealers. No one wants to post a reel saying “look at this average condition vintage watch we have in stock! It’s a nice example but has a few issues as many vintage watches have”. That doesn’t attract followers and build your reputation.

Purely my opinion but to find uncommon/rare watches in great condition, you often have to pony up, which impacts your gross margin. To be a profitable dealer and post flawless images to attract followers is a potential conflict.

Experienced buyers are aware truly uncommon or rare vintage watches are often a compromise between and condition and getting to own one at all. That doesn’t seem to jive with the MO of some dealers who have to say ‘flawless, unpolished, perfect dial, etc”

No real comment on this particular watch, but these are the issues and hassles trying to buy well worn, 50+ year old watches over the internet via pictures and a short description. And add in the complications of doing it internationally. You are either up to that, or you aren't.

But the dealer should take it back without complaining, the buyer has the responsibility to arrange for its return, complicated because it has to be shipped from the EU to avoid customs. Another moving part.

This is sales. Same is true with automobiles, real estate, antiquities, etc.

If “reputable” auctioneers are capable of this kind of behaviour, then watch dealers are certainly able to stretch their descriptions in the same manner to unload pieces in a very difficult market. For me, a red flag would have come up when the dealer quoted you a price higher that the one advertised. If we take your story at face value, then this dealer was definitely trying to pull the wool over your eyes.

I would speculate that many dealers are having cash flow issues due to a slowing market combined with tumbling prices. Never mind that the huge US market has been hobbled by astronomical tariffs on Swiss products making things even worse. I fear that this dealer managed to unload a subpar piece and is intent on not to relinquish the cash (probably gone anyway).

Keep up the fight and keep the community informed.

I think you have a fair complaint, dial "imperfections" or flaws such as these should have been mentioned or shown to warrant a price like that. The majority of his respons is less then professional as a right to return - for whatever reason - is mandatory EU law. So why argue ?? Maybe the person who answered you is not aware of this dial damage ?

Anyway, return it is my advice as it will probably never turn into one of your favorites and take whatever shipping costs there are, if any member here can assist it would be wonderful ( send as gift ). I am not aware of any legal right of this seller to deduct any amount upon return of your purchase price ( unless it has been used and has "dimished value" ) in the same condition, because in this case the item simply is ; not as described . Such a clause in the T&c is non applicable.
Please check ; https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees/index_en.htm

If possible arrange for a handover in person, pictures etc, and demand immidiate transfer of funds. Best of luck !

From this dealers website ;

The dial itself is in outstanding good and untouched condition with no blemishes and appears in a beautiful darkbrown hazelnut tone, depending on the angle you hold it.

That’s one of the first things I noticed. When I sell privately I wouldn’t dream of shipping a watch with a scratches crystal.