How do you value an extract of the archives--literally?

Concer · Oct 15, 2020

I stopped ordering the EoA for my watches some time ago. Because, if you are honest, the extract only proves one point. Namely that the component where the serial number is stamped left the Omega factory in the corresponding model. EVERYTHING that happened after that is in the dark.
And when you think about how repair processes took place at watchmakers in the 60s / 70s, I don't even want to know how many people think they have an authentic watch in all its components, in fact a hodgepodge of different components that were originally installed in other models.

And I don't even want to begin with the prices that Omega charges for this "service" ...

timoss · Oct 15, 2020

Wryfox
Guys, an extract does not prove authenticity. It simply shows they have a record for the serial number, and if you're lucky...a few more details on *as built* configuration.

The physical watch in your hand may be very different.

While limited this IS of some value and goes back to my original question: how much of a value add is an extract in a watch you are considering? If it doesn’t have an extract, it COULD be a Franken (barring some very real provenance). How much are you willing to spend (or refrain from spending) on a watch that might turn out to have an incorrect movement in it? I guess the most that is at risk is the cost of sourcing a correct movement after the fact? Maybe that’s the dollar value discount that should be applied and the real dollar value of an extract.....

Wryfox · Oct 15, 2020

timoss
While limited this IS of some value and goes back to my original question: how much of a value add is an extract in a watch you are considering? If it doesn’t have an extract, it COULD be a Franken (barring some very real provenance). How much are you willing to spend (or refrain from spending) on a watch that might turn out to have an incorrect movement in it? I guess the most that is at risk is the cost of sourcing a correct movement after the fact? Maybe that’s the dollar value discount that should be applied and the real dollar value of an extract.....

I think you might be missing my point.... An extract ONLY says what the movement serial was in terms of date and destination, ideally model # and band, etc finer details, when it was built. That's it period. What the watch is 50yrs later could easily appear to represent that original information, but not actually be it. The only thing that might be useful is when that extract says it was a seamaster vs speedmaster. But in that situation, the extract is worthless, and would never accompany that watch being sold, as it proves the watch is not original. It could only accompany a watch that is equal in configuration, but still not prove its originality.

timoss · Oct 15, 2020

Wryfox
I think you might be missing my point.... An extract ONLY says what the movement serial was in terms of date and destination, ideally model # and band, etc finer details, when it was built. That's it period. What the watch is 50yrs later could easily appear to represent that original information, but not actually be it. The only thing that might be useful is when that extract says it was a seamaster vs speedmaster. But in that situation, the extract is worthless, and would never accompany that watch being sold, as it proves the watch is not original. It could only accompany a watch that is equal in configuration, but still not prove its originality.

I understand your point. My original question was how one approaches valuing a watch that does not have an extract accompanying it...

Wryfox · Oct 15, 2020

timoss
I understand your point. My original question was how one approaches valuing a watch that does not have an extract accompanying it...

Well you base it on its own merits.

Sherbie · Oct 15, 2020

Wryfox
Well you base it on its own merits.

+ 1

timoss · Oct 15, 2020

Wryfox
Well you base it on its own merits.

Agreed. Let’s say its merits meet all your criteria but there is no extract for it. Compared to the same watch with an extract, how would you treat its offering my, if at all?

Dan S · Oct 15, 2020

timoss
While limited this IS of some value and goes back to my original question: how much of a value add is an extract in a watch you are considering? If it doesn’t have an extract, it COULD be a Franken (barring some very real provenance). How much are you willing to spend (or refrain from spending) on a watch that might turn out to have an incorrect movement in it? I guess the most that is at risk is the cost of sourcing a correct movement after the fact? Maybe that’s the dollar value discount that should be applied and the real dollar value of an extract.....

It looks like you've answered your own question. The value of an extract is quite limited in most cases for an experienced collector. Hopefully you weren't seriously expecting that someone would provide a universal monetary value. 🙄 People can't even agree on the value of original B&P.

This thread makes me think back to all the OF threads where someone is advised to get an extract for their movement, so they can decide which dial and case to buy to make it "correct". 🤦

timoss · Oct 15, 2020

timoss
Agreed. Let’s say its merits meet all your criteria but there is no extract for it. Compared to the same watch with an extract, how would you treat its offering my, if at all?

“... how would you treat it differently, if at all.”

timoss · Oct 16, 2020

Thanks for all the replies, folks. No, I was not expecting to arrive at an actual $ value of an extract. I was more curious about how the presence (or lack thereof) affects how others approach

Dan S
It looks like you've answered your own question. The value of an extract is quite limited in most cases for an experienced collector. Hopefully you weren't seriously expecting that someone would provide a universal monetary value. 🙄 People can't even agree on the value of original B&P.
🤦

Thanks for all the replies, folks. No, I was not expecting to arrive at an actual $ value of an extract. I was more curious about how the presence of one (or lack thereof) affects how people approach potential purchases. To me, assuming everything looks correct, it would be hard to feel comfortable "risking" high dollar amounts on a Speedy without one, just cuz there is a chance it COULD be a franken (have the incorrect movement). I suppose that is not the end of the world in some cases, but still...

Scooterino36 · Oct 17, 2020

Dan S
It looks like you've answered your own question. The value of an extract is quite limited in most cases for an experienced collector. Hopefully you weren't seriously expecting that someone would provide a universal monetary value. 🙄

I’ll estimate it’s worth CHF 120 (VAT not included).😁

Rman · Oct 17, 2020

Theres been an emphasis here on the watch but the buyer is the ultimate judge of value.

Is the watch what the collector is looking for and is that reference of that brand really needing some kind of paperwork to zhuzh up the offering?

If so, does it take the excellent to the extraordinary —- is that factored into the price? For sure.

Is the extract going to take an ordinary watch to much higher values? Most likely not at all.

timoss · Oct 17, 2020

Yes indeed. I guess I’m a little surprised that some are so willing to throw 15k or 20k into a watch that might turn out to have an incorrect movement. I would do that for less expensive watches, but I guess it’s all relative.... Of course, we are only talking about watches that HAVE extract potential. Most watches out there don’t and maybe it’s better that way. Then it’s only all about the watch’s merits, provenance, etc.

Sherbie · Oct 17, 2020

@timoss

you still dont seem to be listening to anyone here on OF

no one (absolutely no one) can guarantee that a vintage watch sold today is all original - whether sold with an extract or not

even so called “one owner never serviced“ type owners often have to concede that their precious watch had in fact, at one point in time, been serviced and that some parts had been swapped out, after showing their prized possession on OF

if you cant grasp this, well maybe vintage watches ( or vintage anything), is not the hobby for you

Rman · Oct 17, 2020

timoss
Yes indeed. I guess I’m a little surprised that some are so willing to throw 15k or 20k into a watch that might turn out to have an incorrect movement. I would do that for less expensive watches, but I guess it’s all relative....

Are you a buyer? if not...

JwRosenthal · Oct 17, 2020

I don't think anyone here would say the extract itself has value but it can be seen as a "value added" to a package- a perk that could sway a decision against another. Like a watch that has a documented service versus another in similar condition that doesn't at the same price. A COCS cert with a 40 year old Rolex is a nice to have as a collector and can sway a decision, but has no relevance to the functioning of the watch anymore and to a non collector is just paper clutter.
An example where I can think that an extract can be of help in making a decision (adding value) is with a watch like the 024 Seamasters. We know there have been cobbled watches like the Watchco assembled watches. The 552 and 565 movements were used in several other models, so an extract can at least tell us if the movement was assembled in a SM300 when it left the factory.
For someone who values originality- the extract can help sway a decision by providing some rather than no information - this is its true value.

timoss · Oct 17, 2020

Sherbie
@timoss

you still dont seem to be listening to anyone here on OF

no one (absolutely no one) can guarantee that a vintage watch sold today is all original - whether sold with an extract or not

even so called “one owner never serviced“ type owners often have to concede that their precious watch had in fact, at one point in time, been serviced and that some parts had been swapped out, after showing their prized possession on OF

if you cant grasp this, well maybe vintage watches ( or vintage anything), is the hobby for you

I do understand that. It’s not difficult to grasp. In the case of certain Omega watches, though, an extract can tell you if the movement is correct for the model (still possibly not original, of course). That would add value for me, personally, though maybe it matters less to others.

I started the thread because I was curious how others thought about this issue. I think I’m hearing that for many here (at least the ones who have spoken up), an extract isn’t particularly important. I appreciate everyone’s response and it has provided some good for thought. I appreciate the responses.

How do you value an extract of the archives--literally?

Concer

timoss

Wryfox

timoss

Wryfox

Sherbie

timoss

Dan S

timoss

timoss

Scooterino36

Rman

timoss

Sherbie

Rman

JwRosenthal

timoss

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