Help Requested: 2998-6 vs 105.002

brockburst · Apr 16, 2020

Hello friendly forumites. I am seeking to purchase a 2998 or a 105.002 and have narrowed it down to two examples. Vintage Speedmasters are a new venture for me (coming from vintage rolex) and I have read enough to understand how many pitfalls there are in this segment.

Both sellers are reputable, and both watches are stated to be original with strong and potentially unpolished cases.I have spent a LOT of time on speedmaster101 and various others prior to coming here. So FWIW I am doing my best to NOT be some noob asking for everything spelled out clearly for them because they don't want to do the work themselves. While I have done well to get to this point, expertise is not something that can be ramped up quickly on.

So just curious to people here if anything looks out of place or concerning on both watches? Said another way, does anything look very unoriginal or concerning? Grateful for the help and guidance.

Example 1 - 2998-6
To me looks like:
Good Patina, Original Lume on dial and hands
Excellent Condition Dial, no spots or scratches, I believe thats just dust
Serial in Range for 2998-6
Nice DON, seems like correct pushers and crown
Strong Case - maybe unpolished
Original Flat Link bracelet with clasp to 1961
CON: Later 617 End Links
NEED: A couple better shots of the case

Example 2 - 105.002
Stronger Patina
Excellent Condition Dial
Serial in Range for 105.002
Nice DON, seems like correct pushers and crown
Strong Case - maybe unpolished
Original Flat Link bracelet with 6 end links
CON: Numbers 60-100 on the DON bezel seem slightly more clipped than normal, but I am probably incorrect.

apsm100 · Apr 16, 2020

I spent a fair amount of time staring at both of them; hard choice.
Definitely a noob as well but:
#2 is more attractive. Dial and hands are nicer. I am a little confused by the bezel numbers cut off. And bracelet refinishing looks a bit strange (12 o clock). I'm willing to bet case #2 is sharper as well (caseback too).

Spacefruit · Apr 16, 2020

A lot depends on the price.

But I would dismiss the 2998 because if it is not a (older) re lume it sure looks poor.

The cut off bezel is correct, but in my idea it is worth less than a bezel that has no problems.

Dont miss that the 105002 has a lug engraving.

Whats the prices?

brockburst · Apr 16, 2020

Spacefruit
A lot depends on the price.

But I would dismiss the 2998 because if it is not a (older) re lume it sure looks poor.

The cut off bezel is correct, but in my idea it is worth less than a bezel that has no problems.

Dont miss that the 105002 has a lug engraving.

Whats the prices?

Would a black light shot of the lume on the 2998 help determine its originality? After spending a ton of time reading about the lume plots, it seems very difficult to know if they are original, even speedmaster101 had some back and forth on an Ed White.

Regarding the 105.002 - perhaps a dumb question, but would a normal "full" DON not fit into that bezel? I would probably replace it with one that isn't chopped but I guess worry about it not fitting.

That being said, while I said I have narrowed it down to 2 examples, I am certainly content to keep searching as there is no rush.

Dan S · Apr 16, 2020

Sometimes the edge of a bezel just gets beat up over time and obscures some of the printing. Also, sometimes the printing isn't perfectly centered. It's common enough, even if it's not the most attractive.

eugeneandresson · Apr 16, 2020

The bezel wouldn’t worry me one bit. There are a lot of them like that. It’s the dial/lume/hands that is most important, and in this case the winner clearly is the 105002. But again it all depends on price, as @Spacefruit said. Mind sharing?

brockburst · Apr 16, 2020

eugeneandresson
The bezel wouldn’t worry me one bit. There are a lot of them like that. It’s the dial/lume/hands that is most important, and in this case the winner clearly is the 105002. But again it all depends on price, as @Spacefruit said. Mind sharing?

They are basically priced the same.

Is the consensus largely then that the 2998-6 has been relumed?

Spacefruit · Apr 16, 2020

brockburst
They are basically priced the same.

......

Same as what? 😀

Time to stop being coy on the price if you want further, deeper help. We dont charge, but we do like full disclosure - thats our price tag!

brockburst · Apr 16, 2020

Spacefruit
Same as what? 😀

Time to stop being coy on the price if you want further, deeper help. We dont charge, but we do like full disclosure - thats our price tag!

They are priced same as each other. 😀

Spacefruit · Apr 16, 2020

Which is?

BlueBoy · Apr 16, 2020

I have zero connection to either sellers, but there were 2 x 105.002's in the FS section here... Are they included in your search?

eugeneandresson · Apr 16, 2020

Spacefruit
Which is?

Lots and lots of ...

brockburst · Apr 16, 2020

Anyone else believe the 2998-6 is DEFINITELY relumed?

Patrik83 · Apr 16, 2020

The 105.002 is the winner of these two.

A closer look at the chrono hand on the 2998 would make me think something has been done with the lume.

Also, I would not change that bezel.

brockburst · Apr 16, 2020

The 105.002 does have an extract of the archives also which seems uncommon. Produced 1963 and delivered to Denmark.

mac_omega · Apr 16, 2020

brockburst
The 105.002 does have an extract of the archives also which seems uncommon. Produced 1963 and delivered to Denmark.

If you have the proof by an EoA this is a nice extra specially for a 105.002 - I would go for this, it also looks nicer, I would not mind the bezel.
just my 2 c

MikeMan2727 · Apr 16, 2020

I've been following this thread today and don't understand what the buyer stands to gain by not disclosing the asking price.

timoss · Apr 16, 2020

MikeMan2727
I've been following this thread today and don't understand what the buyer stands to gain by not disclosing the asking price.

Embarrassment at overpaying?

killer67 · Apr 16, 2020

I prefer the 105.002s condition but pricing would help in offering more accurate feedback

ChrisN · Apr 16, 2020

I assume you can see these and are not buying from these pictures? As these must be $10000+ you'd imagine someone could take a few reasonable photos...

The first one appears to have non synchronized hour and minute hands and it looks like the minute jumper spring is incorrectly installed. Coupled with a very sad looking movement, I'd imagine that this watch has not been well looked after. The dial lume seems to bear that out.

The second one (105.002) looks a nicer watch that appears less badly treated. But the photos are still poor.

All the bezel, dial, pusher details are best dealt with by the Speedmaster experts. You said this in reply to @Spacefruit:

brockburst
know if they are original, even speedmaster101 had some back and forth on an Ed White.

I assume you realise that it's his site you're referring to?

Good luck, Chris

Help Requested: 2998-6 vs 105.002

brockburst

apsm100

Spacefruit

brockburst

Dan S

eugeneandresson

brockburst

Spacefruit

brockburst

Spacefruit

BlueBoy

eugeneandresson

brockburst

Patrik83

brockburst

mac_omega

MikeMan2727

timoss

killer67

ChrisN

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