Help: grandfather's Seamaster circa 1971

TerrotPUO · Aug 24, 2021

Hello everyone,

After hearing me talk about automatic watches several times, my grandmother just gave me my grandfather's old Omega Seamaster (I'm ecstatic). As a beginner, I am looking for as much information as possible about this watch.

The watch is gold plated. My grandmother tells me that she would have bought the watch in 1971 or possibly earlier, between 1967 and 1970. According to my first research, it could be a model 166.002 from 1966/1967 (see photo of the vintage catalog below). What do you think about it?

I think the glass has been changed (it doesn't have the Omega mark in the center) and the crown too (no Omega logo).

I also have doubts about the dial: I think it has been changed or modified in part (the lower loop of the Seamaster' "S" is different from what can be seen on other models of the same period). What do you think about it: is it a redial?

Also, is it normal that there is no seconds hand? Is it missing?

I plan to have this watch serviced/restored in order to wear it every day (considering its sentimental value, I will never sell it). What operations should be performed to be able to wear it with peace of mind?

Finally, do you have a rough idea of the value of this watch (only to be able to assess the cost of repairs accordingly - not for resale).

As you can see, I have everything to learn about this watch and all information is welcome. Thank you in advance!

Servius · Aug 24, 2021

Hello !

There’s a good chance that it is a ref. 166.002 as you stated.

The second hand is indeed missing, the crown isn’t correct and to my eye, the dial has been repainted at some point.

Nevertheless it’s a family heirloom, so (personal opinion) a new crown, new second hand and a service would be the road I’d take. And for the long term, finding a correct dial 😀

From what I understood you’re from France, you should be able to find a talented watchmaker in your area to take care of this 👍

Davidt · Aug 24, 2021

Very likely a 166.002 (or 166.001). As stated there should be a centre seconds hand and the dial has certainly be repainted.

To a colllector a repainted dial is a big no no, but as a heirloom it’s likely the dial your grandfather looked down on for years so is now an important part of the watches history.

it also looks like the plating is worn through in paces such as the lug tips. It’s a judgement call as to whether you try and get it replated or again stick with it as part of the watches history.

MtV · Aug 24, 2021

@Davidt and @Servius have already summed it up, just a little additon as you asked for value: In good shape, this would be a ~500-600€ watch. Most of the value is in the dial and the case, so yours would be a fraction of that in the present condition. If you want to include a restoration in the service, e.g. replating the case and having the dial redone to look closer to it's condition when it was new, you'll spend more on that than the watch is worth. I'm just saying this because you asked, though, not implying you shouldnt do it - it's a family heirloom, so a price tag isnt that relevant, I suppose.

ConElPueblo · Aug 24, 2021

Great start for a collection - congrats! 😀

TerrotPUO · Aug 25, 2021

Thank you @Servius , @Davidt , @MtV and @ConElPueblo for your replies.
I went to a watchsmith yesterday. and he opened the case. It is indeed a 166.002 reference from 1966/1967. It's 40 microns gold plated (which is thick, apparently).
From a first glance, the caliber (a 565) does not look in bad shape, but the watchsmith will strip it down and provide me with a quotation for an overhaul (he's not a dealer, but he is certified by Omega and works only with Omega original parts and grants a 2 years guarantee just like Omega.. only difference is that the quotation itself does not cost 120 euros and it does not take up to 3 or 4 months to get the quotation). He told me that he hopes that the balance wheel is not damages because it is an expensive piece.
As for the price... He told me that a complete overhaul (including or not the dial, to my preference) would probably cost between 1000 and 1500 euros (without replating the gold). Thank you @MtV for your assessment of the value of the watch. That is more or less what I expected: around 500 euros in good shape.
I just wanted to know the price of the watch in order to assess the price of the work to be done on it, but anyway I want to wear this watch so I will have it serviced no matter the price (of course, I am not Cresus either...).
As for the dial and the gold plating... In the same way I like old motorcycles and cars (one of my hobbies) with their patinas, the repainted dial and the worned gold plating are part of my grandfather's watch history and I will very likely keep it as it is. This watch has traveled with him around the globe and was serviced when he lived in Africa or Asia in the sixties and seventies, so the "defects" are somehow like the scars of an old traveler (at least the scars of its favorite tool). In any case, what was good enough for my grandpa is good enough for me, as this watch is more a wearable memory than a museum piece.
Thank you all for these information. It is like a small adventure to have this watch working again and to find out its history. Also, it is certainly not my last automatic watch (without much originality, I find the speedmaster pro astonishing and dream of offering it to myself for my 30s).

Mark020 · Aug 25, 2021

TerrotPUO
He told me that a complete overhaul (including or not the dial, to my preference) would probably cost between 1000 and 1500 euros (without replating the gold)

WTF..... Movement service should be EUR 500 max.....

Passover · Aug 25, 2021

TerrotPUO
As for the price... He told me that a complete overhaul (including or not the dial, to my preference) would probably cost between 1000 and 1500 euros (without replating the gold).

With or without dial restoration, I did not understand what you mean?

Without dial restoration this would be a very high price!

Take a look at this thread:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/french-members-share-your-trustful-watchmakers.108137/

Davidt · Aug 25, 2021

€1000+ to service this watch is a huge price and almost certainly more than Omega would charge.

I’d expect €250-500 for a full movement service

TerrotPUO · Aug 25, 2021

Thank you all for your helpful replies.
This approximation (up to 1000 / 1500 euros) is for the replacement of the glass, the replacement of the crown, a new seconds hands and a complete strip down (and cleaning with ultrasounds) of the movement with replacement of all used or damaged parts. Omega's AD in the same town told me a similar approximation.
Anyway, we cannot know without stripping down the movement, which is ongoing. Then I will be able to ask for another quotation if necessary.
@Passover thank you for the link, I will check it with attention. As for my remark "with or without dial restoration", I simply meant that the quotation may be more like 1000 without dial replacement and more like 1500 with it (those number are just from me, the watchsmith just told me that it will be cheaper to keep the dial as it is).
In any case I will benchmark other watchsmiths, I just did not want to give the watch to Omega's AD for a quotation first, as they send it directly to Omega: as a result, the quotation only costs 120 euros (deducted from the price of the work if I accept the quotation) and can take up to 3 or 4 months just for the quotation (and up to 2/3 months more for the work).
@Davidt : Omega's AD told me that the overhaul would probably cost up to 1000/1500 euros, so at least it's coherent with the watchsmith's first assessment.
Omega's AD and the watchsmith both told me that the fact that some pieces may have to be remade (if not available) makes it more expensive.
In comparison, accordingly to Omega's website :
- a "complete service" ("The complete service restores the functional and the aesthetic aspect of the watch. It includes the dismantling, the overhauling and replacement of all worn components in the movement") is at least 520 euros: https://www.omegawatches.com/customer-service/interventions-and-prices/price-information
- a "full restoration" starts at 1 600 euros : https://www.omegawatches.com/customer-service/interventions-and-prices/restoration

Sooo, I guess I must not be in a hurry and take the time to find a reasonable offer from a competent watchsmith, but I will be able to do so only once the watch has been stripped down. Am I missing anything ?

padders · Aug 25, 2021

TerrotPUO
Thank you all for your helpful replies.
This approximation (up to 1000 / 1500 euros) is for the replacement of the glass, the replacement of the crown, a new seconds hands and a complete strip down (and cleaning with ultrasounds) of the movement with replacement of all used or damaged parts. Omega's AD in the same town told me a similar approximation.
Anyway, we cannot know without stripping down the movement, which is ongoing. Then I will be able to ask for another quotation if necessary.
@Passover thank you for the link, I will check it with attention. As for my remark "with or without dial restoration", I simply meant that the quotation may be more like 1000 without dial replacement and more like 1500 with it (those number are just from me, the watchsmith just told me that it will be cheaper to keep the dial as it is).
In any case I will benchmark other watchsmiths, I just did not want to give the watch to Omega's AD for a quotation first, as they send it directly to Omega: as a result, the quotation only costs 120 euros (deducted from the price of the work if I accept the quotation) and can take up to 3 or 4 months just for the quotation (and up to 2/3 months more for the work).
@Davidt : Omega's AD told me that the overhaul would probably cost up to 1000/1500 euros, so at least it's coherent with the watchsmith's first assessment.
Omega's AD and the watchsmith both told me that the fact that some pieces may have to be remade (if not available) makes it more expensive.
In comparison, accordingly to Omega's website :
- a "complete service" ("The complete service restores the functional and the aesthetic aspect of the watch. It includes the dismantling, the overhauling and replacement of all worn components in the movement") is at least 520 euros: https://www.omegawatches.com/customer-service/interventions-and-prices/price-information
- a "full restoration" starts at 1 600 euros : https://www.omegawatches.com/customer-service/interventions-and-prices/restoration

Sooo, I guess I must not be in a hurry and take the time to find a reasonable offer from a competent watchsmith, but I will be able to do so only once the watch has been stripped down. Am I missing anything ?

This is a family heirloom so getting it running is a good idea but since any more than maybe £300/€350 you put into it will be money down the drain, personally I would look at a much cheaper servicing alternative. They are out there and if you tell us which market you are in (France was suggested above) people can suggest avenues. There are any number of qualified and reputable watchmakers who will do this for around that budget or less, since in paying 1K+ you are not actually getting anything extra: it will still have a repainted dial and wear to the plate on the lugs.

TerrotPUO · Aug 25, 2021

padders
This is a family heirloom so getting it running is a good idea but since any more than maybe £300/€350 you put into it will be money down the drain, personally I would look at a much cheaper servicing alternative. They are out there and if you tell us which market you are in (France was suggested above) people can suggest avenues. There are any number of qualified and reputable watchmakers who will do this for around that budget or less, since in paying 1K+ you are not actually getting anything extra: it will still have a repainted dial and wear to the plate on the lugs.

As it has a huge sentimental value for me, I am willing to pay more than the price of the watch itself, if it is necessary to be able to wear it for another twenty years (for example, around 500 euros). This being said, I may not be willing to pay three of four time the price of the watch... And from what I understand here, I may be able to find cheaper (yet good quality) alternatives to a 1000/1500 euros quotation, which is definitely a very significant amount of money.
I live in Lyon (France) so I am looking for a watchmaker in this area. I can drive 2 or 3 hours to reach a good professional (maybe should I go directly to Switzerland?). However, Paris is a little bit far.
The worn lungs and the repainted dial are not so much of a problem for me. Taking this into consideration, as you said, I may be able to find a more reasonable solution.

Davidt · Aug 25, 2021

I assure you, a fully competent service on this watch, to the exact same standard can be found fairly easily for significantly less than 1000.
Yea, due diligence is required as not all watchmakers are equal but that price is extremely high.

Archer · Aug 25, 2021

TerrotPUO
Omega's AD and the watchsmith both told me that the fact that some pieces may have to be remade (if not available) makes it more expensive.

A couple of things...

First, there nothing in this watch that would have to be made by a watchmaker. All the parts for the movement are readily available from Omega, so nothing is discontinued and requires someone to fabricate it.

The balance for this watch is quite expensive, and the people telling you that "This should not cost more then XXX" have no idea what parts are needed, so those comments are somewhat misleading, but not unexpected, as this happens pretty much every time someone posts a price like this. The balance complete alone for this watch is close to 600 Euros for example, and the crystal is another 100, the parts in the automatic winding (commonly worn and in need of replacement) are another 150. So take these comments with a grain of salt because it's apparent that some just don't understand how expensive parts are for these watches.

Once you have the estimate, post what the breakdown is here - ask them for a list of the parts they intend to replace. Once we know that, we can tell you if the price is actually too much or not.

I service this caliber family often, and it's not unusual at all for the price of the parts to exceed what I am charging in labour. It was never the case in the past, but over the last few years Omega has been increasing the prices at a very high rate. Prices double and triple overnight, so this estimate given as more of a worst case scenario doesn't surprise me at all.

People who are very used to getting their watches serviced for not a lot of money are in for a rude awakening - the price I often see people quoting are not sustainable, just due to the cost of parts.

Davidt · Aug 25, 2021

Likelihood is important though Al. How often do you replace a balance complete?

You’ll know far more than pretty much anyone here how much a service from a good watchmaker will cost but I’ll wager the average all in price for this ref is not €1000-1500

Archer · Aug 25, 2021

Davidt
Likelihood is important though Al. How often do you replace a balance complete?

You’ll know far more than pretty much anyone here how much a service from a good watchmaker will cost but I’ll wager the average all in price for this ref is not €1000-1500

Not often, but as I said (and you maybe missed) as an estimate of more of a worst case scenario, this doesn't surprise me at all. And please let's eliminate the high end, as this includes a dial restoration.

But let's take a real life example - I just looked at the invoice for the 565 I'm working on right now. Parts for the movement that are required are 240 Euros. Add in a new crystal at 100 Euros, new case tube and crown, plus case back seal, and now the parts alone are 380 Euros. And this isn't particularly bad - no balance required certainly.

So if someone is arguing that a service should be no more than 500 Euros, well the watchmaker must be living in a shack somewhere, because he's certainly not making much money on his efforts. The 120 left over has to cover all his overheads, so rent, insurance, equipment costs, consumables costs, and pay him some sort of salary.

And people wonder why it's so hard to find a good watchmaker...keep it up and there won't be any, because you can make more money with less hassles being a Walmart greeter...

Davidt · Aug 25, 2021

The 1000-1500 estimate didn’t include the dial as far as I was aware. As per the OPs second post it’s what he inferred, but not what the WM specified.

I can only speak from experience, I’ve used a lot of watchmakers over the years and as I’m generally a collector I want my watches to be in good condition for the long haul. As such I sway away from people who charge £150 to strip and oil as I prefer to pay for a good service and have piece of mind that worn parts are replaced as required.

Purely based on my experience and excluding those services where people only replace broken, rather than worn parts, I still think €1000-1500 is excessive and very much a worse case scenario rather than a likely scenario.

EDIT: to clarify and avoid any confusion, my comment around a €500 top end is assuming the only parts that require replacing are the crown, mainspring, gaskets etc. I’m not saying that this includes any significant movement parts. I budget for these on a case by case basis.

Archer · Aug 25, 2021

Davidt
Purely based on my experience and excluding those services where people only replace broken, rather than worn parts, I still think €1000-1500 is excessive and very much a worse case scenario rather than a likely scenario.

Not sure if you are still not reading my posts, but this is exactly what I said. The fact that the watchmaker specifically said something about the balance makes me think he's already seen an issue with it, because it's not typical to have a concern about the balance really.

Davidt
EDIT: to clarify and avoid any confusion, my comment around a €500 top end is assuming the only parts that require replacing are the crown, mainspring, gaskets etc. I’m not saying that this includes any significant movement parts. I budget for these on a case by case basis.

Case by case basis - exactly. Unless you know what is being replaced, declaring a price too much and telling someone it can definitely be done cheaper when you really have no idea, is really not helpful to the OP. This is why I asked the OP to provide a list of what is being replaced, and then some honest input can be given.

People tend to have very knee jerk reactions to these prices - again it happens with stunning regularity. Every time I smh because without knowing what's actually being done, people are just guessing.

padders · Aug 25, 2021

You are slapping us down in your own inimitable way here Al because you have chosen to read it that people including myself are suggesting that any watchmaker suggesting he spends €1K plus must be taking the Michael. That isn't what is necessarily being said but I get why you will robustly defend the economics of the reputable members of your profession. I myself have sent watches recently to approved repair house STS and noted that the parts prices are now horrendous so I do see your point there. I note you use the balance as an example, since it was mentioned by the OP it is possibly dodgy, according to the advice he was given but of course it maybe that he is being taken for a ride and in actual fact there is nothing wrong. This doesn't read to me that the watch was quoted after a strip down, simply that someone took it out the back and worked out how big a mug he is. Of course I could be wrong. This is the worry since the numbers he quotes are mighty high, particularly after a cursory look. If the watchmaker wasn’t sure what was wrong, would a quote of €500-1500 not have been more realistic?

At the end of the day, this is a €500 watch at most and blowing mega bucks at it is won't necessarily honour grandad. That is perhaps the more pertinent point IMO.

ps like us you are just guessing too.

Archer · Aug 25, 2021

To be clear I am not defending anyone. I have no idea if the price being quoted is appropriate or not, and that is my point - no one here does.

But you appear to contradict yourself here, saying no one is suggesting that the OP is being taken for a ride, and then doing that very thing yourself.

padders
You are slapping us down in your own inimitable way here Al because you have chosen to read it that people including myself are suggesting that any watchmaker suggesting he spends €1K plus must be taking the Michael. That isn't what is necessarily being said

This doesn't read to me that the watch was quoted after a strip down, simply that someone took it out the back and worked out how big a mug he is.

There was an initial estimate given, with a proper quote to follow - that is what I read from the OP, and why I've asked that he provide the quote with a list of parts to be replaced - that way an informed comment can be made with regards to the pricing.

I am saying, as I often do in these threads, that people jump to conclusions without the details needed to really make an informed conclusion, like this:

Mark020
WTF..... Movement service should be EUR 500 max.....

I don't think this helps anyone, but obviously people will disagree with that stance, and that's fine.

Help: grandfather's Seamaster circa 1971

TerrotPUO

Servius

Davidt

MtV

ConElPueblo

TerrotPUO

Mark020

Passover

Davidt

TerrotPUO

padders

TerrotPUO

Davidt

Archer

Davidt

Archer

Davidt

Archer

padders

Archer

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