Help: grandfather's Seamaster circa 1971

Davidt · Aug 25, 2021

From the OPs post he did state “the watchmaker hopes the balance doesn’t need replacing”. As this is pre-inspection there doesn’t seem to be a basis for including this in the estimate. If there is reason to include this then I agree the estimate is more reasonable, but if not, I maintain its high.

I also agree that me telling the OP that the service could be completed at a lower rate is perhaps not the full story if parts are required. Equally, I would say that an argument stating €100-1500 is reasonable when perhaps minimal parts are required is a different side of the same coin.

In the end, yes, a full breakdown of costs/parts are required to know what’s reasonable, but if this is service + basic parts only, I maintain its excessive and this was the jist of my replies.

Archer · Aug 25, 2021

padders
At the end of the day, this is a €500 watch at most and blowing mega bucks at it is won't necessarily honour grandad. That is perhaps the more pertinent point IMO.

I wanted to address this last point separately. Value is a tricky thing, in particular with an heirloom. I've had people spend hundreds with me to fix a watch that they were given by their mother, that went through the laundry - it was a small ladies watch with absolutely zero value.

I don't judge what people do with their money. If people want to spend the money, that's up to them, and of course many people would consider this whole hobby an incredible waste of money.

But the larger point to me is what is coming. Fewer watchmakers, more expensive parts, and more people having to decide if the watch that isn't necessarily very valuable from a commercial standpoint is worth fixing or not.

padders · Aug 25, 2021

Archer
To be clear I am not defending anyone. I have no idea if the price being quoted is appropriate or not, and that is my point - no one here does.

But you appear to contradict yourself here, saying no one is suggesting that the OP is being taken for a ride, and then doing that very thing yourself.

There was an initial estimate given, with a proper quote to follow - that is what I read from the OP, and why I've asked that he provide the quote with a list of parts to be replaced - that way an informed comment can be made with regards to the pricing.

I am saying, as I often do in these threads, that people jump to conclusions without the details needed to really make an informed conclusion, like this:

I don't think this helps anyone, but obviously people will disagree with that stance, and that's fine.

No I don't think I said that. What I said was that a watchmaker who asks you to spend over a grand may well be acting in good faith, since I accept a proper job can cost that but I wonder if this one is since his numbers went very high very early without a full appraisal of the actual condition. Something I fully concede you have said all along is necessary.

Archer · Aug 25, 2021

Davidt
Equally, I would say that an argument stating €100-1500 is reasonable when perhaps minimal parts are required is a different side of the same coin.

And literally no one has said this in the thread. If you have somehow interpreted my comments to mean this, then please go back and read them again carefully as written.

Archer · Aug 25, 2021

padders
No I don't think I said that. What I said was that a watchmaker who asks you to spend over a grand may well be acting in good faith, since I accept a proper job can cost that but I wonder if this one is since his numbers went very high very early.

Sorry, I'm unsure what this means then:

padders
This doesn't read to me that the watch was quoted after a strip down, simply that someone took it out the back and worked out how big a mug he is.

Look I don't provide hard quotes for people, because for me to cover every possible eventuality, I would have to quote a very high number, like the watchmaker here has done. I have a flat fee for labour (which hasn't gone up in 3+ years, partially because the parts have gone up so much I don't feel I can raise my own prices, but that's my issue) and I tell people that parts will be charged as needed, and at my cost.

I feel that this is the fairest way for both parties, because I won't get stuck with a watch I lose my shirt on, and the customers won't get stuck paying a high quote when it wasn't needed. My customers are generally very happy with that, and I keep them up to date if I find serious issues inside the watch that mean huge parts costs, and most tell me to go ahead. I can only remember maybe 2 or 3 who said to stop work on the watch because of this, so generally this "time and material" method works well, and both parties are happy.

But still some people want to know what the "worst case scenario:" is when I tell them my pricing. I'll give then aa high end on it, but also tell them that this doesn't mean much until I get the watch apart and can inspect things under a microscope. If a part s worn, I take photos under the microscope and show exactly what the worn parts is - there is full transparency, and the parts are returned, so the owner can inspect them themselves if they want to.

But not may watchmakers work this way - most will give you a quote either based on a cursory inspection, and that it. Or, they will as in this case, give you a basic estimate, and then provide a detailed quote after the watch is disassembled and inspected. The quote can go up or down from the initial estimate.

Davidt · Aug 25, 2021

Like I clarified in subsequent posts, I’m also not saying it’s unreasonable if parts are included.

In a nutshell, if €1000 is the basic service plus parts, it’s very expensive IMO.

If it’s €1000 inclusive of parts based on the watchmakers assessment of the watch then it’s more reasonable.

My preference is always for the basic service + parts (or an allowance for reasonable risk), rather than a worse case, all in as I don’t think this offers a fair comparison.

padders · Aug 25, 2021

Y

Archer
Sorry, I'm unsure what this means then:

Look I don't provide hard quotes for people, because for me to cover every possible eventuality, I would have to quote a very high number, like the watchmaker here has done. I have a flat fee for labour (which hasn't gone up in 3+ years, partially because the parts have gone up so much I don't feel I can raise my own prices, but that's my issue) and I tell people that parts will be charged as needed, and at my cost.

I feel that this is the fairest way for both parties, because I won't get stuck with a watch I lose my shirt on, and the customers won't get stuck paying a high quote when it wasn't needed. My customers are generally very happy with that, and I keep them up to date if I find serious issues inside the watch that mean huge parts costs, and most tell me to go ahead. I can only remember maybe 2 or 3 who said to stop work on the watch because of this, so generally this "time and material" method works well, and both parties are happy.

But still some people want to know what the "worst case scenario:" is when I tell them my pricing. I'll give then aa high end on it, but also tell them that this doesn't mean much until I get the watch apart and can inspect things under a microscope. If a part s worn, I take photos under the microscope and show exactly what the worn parts is - there is full transparency, and the parts are returned, so the owner can inspect them themselves if they want to.

But not may watchmakers work this way - most will give you a quote either based on a cursory inspection, and that it. Or, they will as in this case, give you a basic estimate, and then provide a detailed quote after the watch is disassembled and inspected. The quote can go up or down from the initial estimate.

You don't see what I mean when I say that if the guy gave an estimate without a strip down and simply quoted for the worst case scenario that was at best unprofessional and at worst taking the piss? I think we may be taking at cross purposes or there is a transatlantic translation issue but I'll try again. I get that watch work can cost big bucks. There is no debate about that which I can see. I don't get that someone can quote big bucks for a job without assessing that job properly unless a) he is paying for his next holiday early or b) clairvoyant.

I think you went on the defensive here early. I honestly don't think anyone was suggesting that where justified, a complicated movement restoration can't cost a lot ie 4 figures. Clearly it can. I take your point about the next couple of years being tough for all. It seems genuine plastic crystals are now the thick end of £80 for some models it seems. F'ing madness and how you are supposed to pass that on to a customer with a straight face I have no idea.

philips · Aug 25, 2021

Personally, I would keep the watch as close to the condition your relative had it, just get it serviced so it functions for daily use. Reach out to collectors in your area via forums to get watchmaker references and get additional quotes.

Archer · Aug 25, 2021

padders
You don't see what I mean when I say that if the guy gave an estimate without a strip down and simply quoted for the worst case scenario that was at best unprofessional and at worst taking the piss?

Look, I don't know this watchmaker, or how he works. As I've illustrated, I don't work this way, but I know others do exactly this - they give an estimate based on a cursory inspection, and then give a formal quote after a thorough inspection, and that quote can go up or down from the estimate. This is a common way of doing these.

I don't know what the watchmaker saw when he opened the watch for a cursory inspection, and you don't either. I'll say it again because people seem to not be getting the message - I'm not saying the estimate is right or wrong, just that there isn't enough information to judge it. I don't know how I can make that any more clear.

If you think giving the max. estimate is somehow unethical, I guess that's what you believe, but as I've already explained, some people want this up front.

padders
I don't get that someone can quote big bucks for a job without assessing that job properly unless a) he is paying for his next holiday early or b) clairvoyant.

Do you understand the difference between an estimate and a quote? The watchmaker has given a verbal estimate at this point from what I gather, and is disassembling the watch to give a proper quote. He specifically mentioned the balance, and while you have assumed this is some nefarious tactic to charge more, I'm not assuming that it is.

padders
I think you went on the defensive here early. I honestly don't think anyone was suggesting that where justified, a complicated movement restoration can't cost a lot ie 4 figures. Clearly it can.

Then you didn't read all the posts, because one person said 500 Euro max.

padders
I take your point about the next couple of years being tough for all. It seems genuine plastic crystals are now the thick end of £80 for some models it seems. F'ing madness and how you are supposed to pass that on to a customer with a straight face I have no idea.

One wheel for a Speedmaster (321/8761/1861) recently went from $38 to $170 overnight. It's a wheel I replace often. Honestly people have no idea what's coming...this conversation will seem quaint in the not too distant future.

padders · Aug 25, 2021

Archer
Look, I don't know this watchmaker, or how he works. As I've illustrated, I don't work this way, but I know others do exactly this - they give an estimate based on a cursory inspection, and then give a formal quote after a thorough inspection, and that quote can go up or down from the estimate. This is a common way of doing these.

I don't know what the watchmaker saw when he opened the watch for a cursory inspection, and you don't either. I'll say it again because people seem to not be getting the message - I'm not saying the estimate is right or wrong, just that there isn't enough information to judge it. I don't know how I can make that any more clear.

If you think giving the max. estimate is somehow unethical, I guess that's what you believe, but as I've already explained, some people want this up front.

Do you understand the difference between an estimate and a quote? The watchmaker has given a verbal estimate at this point from what I gather, and is disassembling the watch to give a proper quote. He specifically mentioned the balance, and while you have assumed this is some nefarious tactic to charge more, I'm not assuming that it is.

Then you didn't read all the posts, because one person said 500 Euro max.

One wheel for a Speedmaster (321/8761/1861) recently went from $38 to $170 overnight. It's a wheel I replace often. Honestly people have no idea what's coming...this conversation will seem quaint in the not too distant future.

I’ll try to reply but forgive the lack of inline quotes since I am on the phone and find that tricky.

Yes I do personally think it odd that he would quote simply a top end figure if the possibility was there for a lower end charge. Would it not be more honest to point out that it may be less, one might legitimately infer that it might not be less. How often do you get to the supermarket checkout and they say ‘hey have $20 back’?

Yes I do understand the difference since I work as a jewellery valuer. We would usually give a range estimate then hope that the final offer would come in somewhere in the range.

No I didn’t spot that someone had given a ceiling figure, which is clearly not sensible, but I do note you like to throw the ‘did you read the post’ barb pretty liberally. It may be effective but it does come across as pretty patronising. I note you seem to have misunderstood my first post, I could ask the same of you.

No argument at all with your point 6, I too fear for the future in this regard.

Archer · Aug 25, 2021

padders
Yes I do personally think it odd that he would quote simply a top end figure if the possibility was there for a lower end charge. Would it not be more honest to point out that it may be less, one might legitimately infer that it might not be less. How often do you get to the supermarket checkout and they say ‘hey have $20 back’?

So first, I'm not sure how grocery stores work where you live, but all prices are fixed and posted there. This is not a good analogy to a situation where costs are, by the very nature of the job, variable.

Second, please remember that the initial estimate is only step 1. The watch is currently undergoing to process of being fully disassembled for a firm quote based on what the OP has said.

If you see the way this particular watchmaker has done things as being unethical, that's completely up to you, and I would suggest you don't use that watchmaker. You appear to be assuming, without actually seeing the condition of the movement. that something nefarious is going on, where I am giving the benefit of the doubt to the watchmaker who has actually held the watch in his hands, and inspected the movement.

Again, I don't know if the estimate is high, or low, or somewhere in between. I'm not willing to jump to the negative conclusions you are, and if you consider me a bad person because of that, so be it.

padders
Yes I do understand the difference since I work as a jewellery valuer. We would usually give a range estimate then hope that the final offer would come in somewhere in the range.

I'm not 100% sure what it is you are referring to - is the "range" for the valuation service you provide, or the for the object you are valuing?

padders
No I didn’t spot that someone had given a ceiling figure, which is clearly not sensible, but I do note you like to throw the ‘did you read the post’ barb pretty liberally. It may be effective but it does come across as pretty patronising. I note you seem to have misunderstood my first post, I could ask the same of you.

People have read things into my posts that clearly are not there. People have assumed I am defending a watchmaker that I have never met repeatedly in this thread. This guy may be a crook, he may be legit - I have no idea and neither does anyone else. This is why from the start I've asked the OP to post the formal quote when it comes in, and then we have information to make an informed comment.

Your first post in this thread wasn't even in my mind when I posted in this thread to be honest. I mostly skimmed over it. It's the one you apparently missed that prompted my reply:

Mark020
WTF..... Movement service should be EUR 500 max.....

The other reason I posted was I wanted to let the OP to know that all parts are available, and nothing needs to be custom made.

padders · Aug 25, 2021

Fair enough. I certainly don't want to fall out over it. It is an esoteric argument since we don't have the facts. I won't labour the point any further since we are in effect arguing over how many angels can balance on the head of a pin and you have done me enough favours over the years to mean I woud be an ingrate even if I thought it warranted, which it isn't.

SkunkPrince · Aug 25, 2021

My watchmaker gives me a ballpark when I hand it off but the detailed estimate comes after what he calls "pre-clean", which I'm guessing is at least some disassembly and "wipe the gunk off". I do know he charges by the hour for adjusting, and I pay extra for an extra round of adjusting than he might ordinarily do for someone else's vintage watch, because I prefer the watch to perfom as well as he can make it.

For me, paying $800 for that, before the parts cost are added, is worth it. I have enough watches that they don't run every day, more like a few days every other month, and that's not a lot of wear, in both senses.

I did get a surprise on one Omega, a 30T2. He charged me less than the estimate because it was well maintained and required minimal adjustment to keep good time. "It just went together," he said. So in that case, yes, I paid $350. But that is unusual.

So for me, the higher the quality of the watch and the better it keeps time means I spend more on it.

I'm fine with that.

Archer · Aug 25, 2021

padders
Fair enough. I certainly don't want to fall out over it. It is an esoteric argument since we don't have the facts. I won't labour the point any further since we are in effect arguing over how many angels can balance on the head of a pin and you have done me enough favours over the years to mean I woud be an ingrate even if I thought it warranted, which it isn't.

We can disagree without being disagreeable - hopefully. 😉

And there's no falling out - I help people I argue with all the time. The forum debates are a completely different thing to me helping where I can, so that's not a problem.

TerrotPUO · Aug 25, 2021

Thank you @Archer , @Davidt , @padders , @SkunkPrince and @philips for your comments, which help me being cautious when I will read the detailed quotation when I receive it.
Please excuse me for not using inline quote, I have not figured out how to do it yet.
Also please note that I did not have in mind any distinction between "estimate" and "quotation" when writing (English is not my first language).

Duly noted that no part will need to be remade (generally, the speech from both the AD and the watchmaker was "parts are getting rare for those old models and some may need to be remade, so that's why overhaul/restoration of such old watches is quite expensive"). Maybe they had the prices increases mentioned by @Archer when saying that, and it was to prevent me for being too much surprised if the price for the parts needed is high.

Regarding the 1000/1500 euros price mentioned (which includes work, parts and taxes) : the watchmaker took the watch to open it, spent like 5 minutes in the back of the shop and came back with the watch open. He then told me that the overhaul of such old watches can easily get expensive (in a "dont be surprised if it happens" way), that he needed to strip down the watch to know what needed to get replaced and then to check to availability of the parts with Omega. He finished by saying that the quotation can be high and that it will probably be more than the price of the watch. When I asked a gross estimate, he answered that it could go up to 1000/1500 euros depending on the parts to be changed and specified that the balance wheel is expensive to replace. He finished by saying that the movement looked in rather good condition at first glance (to reassure me I think).
Generally, it seemed more like a cautious answer and a warning for a client not used to the watch market and its prices (I may be naive but that how I felt it). The watchmaker has a rather good reputation and I got its name from a reputable French forum (the watchmaker is also certified by Omega).

I should get the detailed quotation in around 10 days and I will definitely post it here in order to get some advices.

I will never be able to tell if the pieces identified as "needed to be replaced" are justified. But it is possible that all the parts listed as "to be replaced" are usual for such work and that their price is fair. (I prefer to be optimistic). So, let's wait the quotation and then see.

Concerning whether or not it is sound or not to spend more for some repairs than the watch's worth: as I said, reason is not the prime motivation for my decision because the watch has a sentimental value to me. I asked for an estimation of the price of the watch and advices regarding the estimate/quotation because money "costs" me. I have to work for it and don't get paid enough to not care at all about my expenses (as everyone here, I assume). Ideally, I do not want to pay 10 times the value of the watch for a repair and I can't afford it anyway, that's why I asked. But if 1000 euros are needed to get the watch working, I will spend that money. I just want the price to be duly justified, I dont want to be fooled.

I appreciate all your inputs, thanks !

DON · Aug 25, 2021

I think I'm glad I don't restore anymore. I couldn't afford it. I knew my watchmaker for 12 years and as his store was close by. Dropped in everyday to see if he had something to sell or chat with some others I knew that hung out there. Got low repair prices as I sold him Omega parts at cost (if I had the parts) or picked up his orders from the parts supplier when I picked up mine saving him the trip.

Recently I spoke to a local watchmaker I saw at the last chapter show I was at about re-staffing a balance and he said come see me. Wouldn't give me a quote. 25 years in the business and tells me it could take an hour - could take 4. Wasn't leaving a $600 vintage movement with him without a quote.

$1000 - $1500. Wouldn't let him touch it.

Just my opinion and anyone is free to spend what they want to repair their watches

DON

Help: grandfather's Seamaster circa 1971

Davidt

Archer

padders

Archer

Archer

Davidt

padders

philips

Archer

padders

Archer

padders

SkunkPrince

Archer

TerrotPUO

DON

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