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Help case france
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sleepyastronaut
·Can you post pics of the dial and movement? Are those both marked 'Suisse'?
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sleepyastronaut
·See also the Small eagle hallmark here:
https://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_marks.html
https://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_marks.html
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Syrte
·Looks like a French made case but I should refrain from commenting because I don’t know enough.
See below.
https://omegaforums.net/threads/fab-suisse-roll-call.20625/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/18k...r-501-serial-on-movement-and-case-back.21474/
See below.
https://omegaforums.net/threads/fab-suisse-roll-call.20625/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/18k...r-501-serial-on-movement-and-case-back.21474/
Edited:
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François Pépin
·Hum... this is strange for sure.
The eagle head is usually on the other side of the back in more recent watches, but it is usually on the inner side on watches of this period (middle of the 1940's). So that's okay. The Omega logo looks good as well. However, I do not like the "1" in the case number. Not sure about the PF either: looks a bit off. But it is hard to tell from those pics.
There are two possibilities as far as I can tell. First, this is a fake French made case. The maker would have then add an improper international (or Swiss) hallmark. It would be strange though. Second, this is a genuine French made case that has been also hallmarked with a 750. I guess it could have been added afterwards, for custom reasons, as France did not sign, at that time, international agreements about gold trade and hallmarks.
Do you have more info about this watch? Are there orther eagle heads on the case? There should be at least one on the main part of the case - it was not mandatory for the bezel.
The eagle head is usually on the other side of the back in more recent watches, but it is usually on the inner side on watches of this period (middle of the 1940's). So that's okay. The Omega logo looks good as well. However, I do not like the "1" in the case number. Not sure about the PF either: looks a bit off. But it is hard to tell from those pics.
There are two possibilities as far as I can tell. First, this is a fake French made case. The maker would have then add an improper international (or Swiss) hallmark. It would be strange though. Second, this is a genuine French made case that has been also hallmarked with a 750. I guess it could have been added afterwards, for custom reasons, as France did not sign, at that time, international agreements about gold trade and hallmarks.
Do you have more info about this watch? Are there orther eagle heads on the case? There should be at least one on the main part of the case - it was not mandatory for the bezel.
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Flip
·Hum... this is strange for sure.
The eagle head is usually on the other side of the back in more recent watches, but it is usually on the inner side on watches of this period (middle of the 1940's). So that's okay. The Omega logo looks good as well. However, I do not like the "1" in the case number. Not sure about the PF either: looks a bit off. But it is hard to tell from those pics.
There are two possibilities as far as I can tell. First, this is a fake French made case. The maker would have then add an improper international (or Swiss) hallmark. It would be strange though. Second, this is a genuine French made case that has been also hallmarked with a 750. I guess it could have been added afterwards, for custom reasons, as France did not sign, at that time, international agreements about gold trade and hallmarks.
Do you have more info about this watch? Are there orther eagle heads on the case? There should be at least one on the main part of the case - it was not mandatory for the bezel.
I think you are maybe correct to assume the 750 was added later, likely at the assay office. I believe this is the case (pardon the pun) previously discussed about mine.
I recently found this which has added a new twist to my search ...
http://info.hktdc.com/alert/eu0416a.htm
As a rule, jewellery items produced in or imported into France must be engraved with two hallmarks:
the producer's or responsible person's hallmark i.e., the specific hallmark of the producer or the importer in France which is meant to identify him; and
the so-called certifying hallmark which, until 1 July 2004, had to be engraved by either the State, an accredited body or the producer himself, certifying the percentage of gold, silver or platinum in items of jewellery.
I will elaborate at a future date but I’m inclined to think that different makers, importers, accredited bodies etc will have all had their own way of doing things during this period and sometimes there were anomalies
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Lassion
·
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TimeODanaos
·Please would anyone engaged with this thread please tell me who << PGF >> are? 📖 That is, the letters inscribed inside the diamond shape at the top of the inside of the caseback in the OP photo? That logo has been driving me mad for a couple of years now, so you would be kindly assisting my mental wellbeing - thank you! 👍
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Nobel Prize
·Please would anyone engaged with this thread please tell me who << PGF >> are? 📖 That is, the letters inscribed inside the diamond shape at the top of the inside of the caseback in the OP photo? That logo has been driving me mad for a couple of years now, so you would be kindly assisting my mental wellbeing - thank you! 👍
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TimeODanaos
·😜
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MRC
·Please would anyone engaged with this thread please tell me who << PGF >> are? 📖 That is, the letters inscribed inside the diamond shape at the top of the inside of the caseback in the OP photo? That logo has been driving me mad for a couple of years now, so you would be kindly assisting my mental wellbeing - thank you! 👍
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François Pépin
·I think you are maybe correct to assume the 750 was added later, likely at the assay office. I believe this is the case (pardon the pun) previously discussed about mine.
I recently found this which has added a new twist to my search ...
http://info.hktdc.com/alert/eu0416a.htm
As a rule, jewellery items produced in or imported into France must be engraved with two hallmarks:
the producer's or responsible person's hallmark i.e., the specific hallmark of the producer or the importer in France which is meant to identify him; and
the so-called certifying hallmark which, until 1 July 2004, had to be engraved by either the State, an accredited body or the producer himself, certifying the percentage of gold, silver or platinum in items of jewellery.
I will elaborate at a future date but I’m inclined to think that different makers, importers, accredited bodies etc will have all had their own way of doing things during this period and sometimes there were anomalies
I am glad you eventually embrace the hypothesis I framed about your watch!
Concerning the OP’s watch, I really doubt it could be a matter of makers variation. French law and customs were pretty strict about gold products. The .750 hallmark does not match the period French rules. So it remains odd.
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François Pépin
·Please would anyone engaged with this thread please tell me who << PGF >> are? 📖 That is, the letters inscribed inside the diamond shape at the top of the inside of the caseback in the OP photo? That logo has been driving me mad for a couple of years now, so you would be kindly assisting my mental wellbeing - thank you! 👍
As said above, this topic has been discussed, without definitive answer. I have spent a lot of time searching the same answer you are looking for. I Have not been able to reach it, but I do believe PGF is actually PF with a G like symbol. The issue is that there were plenty of French makers whose initials were PF...
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Flip
·I am glad you eventually embrace the hypothesis I framed about your watch!
I’ve not actually said that François. I believe mine and the OP’s cases show anomalies from the norm, that is not to say both aren’t correct.
I also think experts knowledge is accepted as correct based on what has been seen to date, so when something different turns up they question its originality
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François Pépin
·I’ve not actually said that François. I believe mine and the OP’s cases show anomalies from the norm, that is not to say both aren’t correct.
I also think experts knowledge is accepted as correct based on what has been seen to date, so when something different turns up they question its originality
Sorry if I misunderstood you, but I thought you said your watch had been afterwards stamped with the owl in an assay office. Which is basically the hypothesis I made.
Anyway, whatever the « experts » can say, the French law according gold products is and were pretty strict. So there may be strange things - there are always in our hobby!! - but there are kinds of limits.
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Flip
·Sorry if I misunderstood you, but I thought you said your watch had been afterwards stamped with the owl in an assay office. Which is basically the hypothesis I made.
I think you did misunderstand as you only came to that conclusion after I managed to take a clear magnified image of the Owl. I had already stated ( from the very first post I may add ) that the case carried an import Owl hallmark stamp and that the case will have been examined by the assay office and then given that hallmark as proof of the case’s gold standard. So you agreed with my hypothesis, not the other way round. Anyway this is all for another thread, so back to this one ...
The OP’s case is “French made” no doubt, the misaligned 1 doesn’t make it fake and the .750 stamp may be an anomaly but again does not mean it’s incorrect
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Lassion
·I think the abnormality of the 1 in the serial is not a problem. I have found an example that was sold on OF just like mine. But there's no .750 symbol.
https://omegaforums.net/threads/1940s-omega-pink-gold-cal-28.40892/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/1940s-omega-pink-gold-cal-28.40892/
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François Pépin
·I think you did misunderstand as you only came to that conclusion after I managed to take a clear magnified image of the Owl. I had already stated ( from the very first post I may add ) that the case carried an import Owl hallmark stamp and that the case will have been examined by the assay office and then given that hallmark as proof of the case’s gold standard. So you agreed with my hypothesis, not the other way round. Anyway this is all for another thread, so back to this one ...
The OP’s case is “French made” no doubt, the misaligned 1 doesn’t make it fake and the .750 stamp may be an anomaly but again does not mean it’s incorrect
Er... you do understand that you are rewriting history?! In your first posts, you stated your watch was Swiss made and imported to France, and next you framed several other hypotheses to support the idea it was some kind of very original issue, including one stating that the case could have been French made and the full watch assembled in France... I said from the beginning that, based on the fact there was an owl - as you could not provide a clear pic at that time - your watch was imported and, in my next posts, that it could have been stamped with the owl years after it was made.
Anyway, in the OP’s watch, the 1 is not necessary a red flag. The real strange thing is the .750. As I said in my first answer in this thread, I rather think it is a later stamp.
By the way, as I already said, the link you provided does not confort the idea there were oddities in the old French made cases. On the contrary, it explained the rules were pretty strict and have been a little bit been less strict since 2004. That French made cases should have a garantie hallmark - the eagle for 18k gold - and a maker’s one - in a losange for 18k - is well known and have been said plenty of time here... The fact the first one could be stamped by the maker does not change the rules.
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