Has the watch collecting hobby been tarnished by money?

Posts
1,303
Likes
4,388
Thanks @arcadelt . I just gave an answer to the points you made, sorry if I went a bit over-board in lenght, I have a bit too much time on my hands at the moment.

I do get your sentiment, a few years back it seemd more light-heartedly.
But with soaring prices all accross the board, new and vintage, I get it that more and more people are concerned with the "value" question. And there's not much we can change about it I guess.
 
Posts
3,133
Likes
5,561
I don't think the initial Q and A exchange was that shocking. I mean, yes we should think of other things first but holding value is a legitimate concern for watches or any other collectable.

Absolutely anything that anyone collects becomes tarnished when values reach a certain point. Collecting has always been that way and always will be. The fakes and frankens (actually forgeries and fakes, if we're splitting hairs about terminology) come out, buyers who don't research first get stung, and genuine enthusiasts can't afford what they want any more. The counter to that is that there will always be collectors who stay ahead of the game and learn to spot the fakes and alert others. The hobby then morphs from something that was fun for Everyman to the preserve of collectors with a good eye and cash to spare.

I don't believe this is avoidable. The only way would be to establish some sort of hub where you are told what's good, what's bad and who's selling overpriced junk. Oh hang on a minute - I'm in it right now! But that only works if everyone reads it carefully before buying anything, and every day we see instances of how they don't. Sadly, more people will get burned and disillusioned, which is bad news for any hobby. But whatever the state of the market, top condition and high quality will always sell for good money.
 
Posts
1,689
Likes
5,127
I can see both sides here which I never have done before. Like most here I've bought and sold a great deal of watches over the years and I can honestly say that resale value had rarely been a concern as if I like something then that's good enough for me and I have a slightly quirky taste it seems(most watches I've owned aren't appreciated by the masses). I've been lucky however and pretty much all of my watches have sold for more than I initially spent or at worst same price. This had always been useful as an argument when the wifes expresses her disapproval of me buying yet another watch.

This was all good until I bought my Longines Ultronic chrono earlier this year, I paid in hindsight top dollar for it(they strangely became far more common since buying and prices reflect this) and it's been away for repair for months now with alot of work required. I know if ever I sell this watch I will lose several hundred(unless prices suddenly jump up) and yes like most watches have to be moved on when I want to buy something else. She's already been using this lately to back up how I've wasted money which is kind of annoying after all these years in the positive. Is really made me feel I need to be far more cautious from now on as can't afford to make another mistake like that one.

So I guess from here on I'll need more confidence about possible resale value of future pricey purchases, I never wanted that to be a consideration but in reality it will need to be part of the buying decisions if I want to keep buying watches without getting grief from her in charge(the joys of having joint accounts).
Edited:
 
Posts
5,304
Likes
24,272
If the gist of this thread is lamenting that collecting is ruined because certain watches are being viewed as wealth concentration vehicles, or investments, then I disagree.

We can Buy, collect and wear all manner of different watches. I can’t afford a Ferrari but i still get huge pleasure from owning an inexpensive classic car. (More actually - I can use it).

If it is about the experience of ownership and not what the item is worth, then what the top end is doing should have no more than a passing interest to those not involved - like me watching rare Ferraris sell for millions.

If however one buys with the idea that it is cheap, or could be flipped for a quick profit, then that is exactly the same ethos as the top end, albeit on a small scale - so if I am doing that, I cannot judge the top end either.

If I seek to buy a watch because the watch gives pleasure of ownership, then there plenty of watches to find without going into the shark infested waters of the high end auctions and their associated pilot fish dealers.

Do I think the top end of the watch pool is full of shit, both people and watches? Absolutely. So swim in the other end if it doesn't suit. I do occasionally. but I really have to hold my breath.

That end of the pool has always been full of shit. It’s just that some Omegas have now been drawn into it.

For me I enjoy my odd brands like Prim. I know many others have off beat tastes. These too may get sucked in, but not for too long I suspect.

So my view is that the money in watch collecting has not "ruined" it. It simply means that I can collect other watches for less money if all I am interested in is having an interesting, inexpensive vintage watch to wear that will give me, and occasionally those around me, pleasure.

Try a PRIM:

 
Posts
2,908
Likes
14,898
If the gist of this thread is lamenting that collecting is ruined because certain watches are being viewed as wealth concentration vehicles, or investments, then I disagree.

We can Buy, collect and wear all manner of different watches. I can’t afford a Ferrari but i still get huge pleasure from owning an inexpensive classic car. (More actually - I can use it).

If it is about the experience of ownership and not what the item is worth, then what the top end is doing should have no more than a passing interest to those not involved - like me watching rare Ferraris sell for millions.

If however one buys with the idea that it is cheap, or could be flipped for a quick profit, then that is exactly the same ethos as the top end, albeit on a small scale - so if I am doing that, I cannot judge the top end either.

If I seek to buy a watch because the watch gives pleasure of ownership, then there plenty of watches to find without going into the shark infested waters of the high end auctions and their associated pilot fish dealers.

Do I think the top end of the watch pool is full of shit, both people and watches? Absolutely. So swim in the other end if it doesn't suit. I do occasionally. but I really have to hold my breath.

That end of the pool has always been full of shit. It’s just that some Omegas have now been drawn into it.

For me I enjoy my odd brands like Prim. I know many others have off beat tastes. These too may get sucked in, but not for too long I suspect.

So my view is that the money in watch collecting has not "ruined" it. It simply means that I can collect other watches for less money if all I am interested in is having an interesting, inexpensive vintage watch to wear that will give me, and occasionally those around me, pleasure.

Try a PRIM:


True. I guess it depends though.

While I do agree that collecting obscure brands is fun and affordable (eg. my ongoing obsession with JMWTO's), it can be frustrating if one wishes to buy a watch one likes, only to find to one's dismay that the value is going up inexorably or rocketing up suddenly. Eg. A386, vintage Sub, a nice 1675.

Some of the price increase in part of the general trend (eg. vintage SS rolexes), but some of it is unexpected (at least to me) and fairly sudden (eg. prices of the GP 9075-AF Olimpico). So it can be frustrating to see something double in price within a year, especially when it seems that it's part of a general increased awareness of certain vintage watches which was triggered by crazy prices at the top end of the vintage market.

I like your description of the top end of the market as being full of s**t. Fortunately I don't (and can't afford to) swim there, but like you, even from a mile away, I still have to hold my breath too 😁

Now does anyone have a nice crispy GP 9075-AF Olimpico to sell for $5000? Please contact me...😗
 
Posts
3,133
Likes
5,561
If the gist of this thread is lamenting that collecting is ruined because certain watches are being viewed as wealth concentration vehicles, or investments, then I disagree.

I'd just like to make it clear that for me, "tarnished" is far from the same as "ruined". The road remains open; there are just more pitfalls along the way.
 
Posts
5,304
Likes
24,272
I laughed

Indeed "Tarnished" is far from "ruined"
 
Posts
7,111
Likes
23,092
Do I think the top end of the watch pool is full of shit, both people and watches? Absolutely. So swim in the other end if it doesn't suit. I do occasionally. but I really have to hold my breath.

That end of the pool has always been full of shit. It’s just that some Omegas have now been drawn into it.

Just curious about your definition of "full of shit." Do you mean these top-end players have no intrinsic appreciation for the things they collect, be it watches, art, cars, etc.? I would have thought that those that attempt to sell to the high-enders, in any venue, would have a higher total fecal-matter quotient than the intended recipients themselves.
Edited:
 
Posts
23,466
Likes
52,163
Despite the fact that I complain about the negative effects of speculators and investors on the vintage watch market, I totally agree with @Spacefruit that the hobby is far from ruined. I get a lot of pleasure from finding and wearing an obscure and beautiful high-quality vintage watch, and there are plenty of them around.

Just the other night I was complaining to my wife about how unaffordable my grail pieces are and how much money I have tied up in my collection, and my wife reminded me how much I enjoy some of my lower-priced watches. So I assembled a few groups of 3 watches (one set of chronographs, one of divers, and one of dress watches) that varied in value by a factor of at least 10x and asked her to rank them in price. Obviously, for the lower-end pieces I purposely chose pieces that were obscure but high-quality and lovely. Her rankings had virtually no connection with reality, and she often liked the low-value pieces as much as (or even more than) the high-value ones. Looking at them through her eyes gave me a window back into the attitude that I had when I first started collecting.
 
Posts
2,908
Likes
14,898
Despite the fact that I complain about the negative effects of speculators and investors on the vintage watch market, I totally agree with @Spacefruit that the hobby is far from ruined. I get a lot of pleasure from finding and wearing an obscure and beautiful high-quality vintage watch, and there are plenty of them around.

Just the other night I was complaining to my wife about how unaffordable my grail pieces are and how much money I have tied up in my collection, and my wife reminded me how much I enjoy some of my lower-priced watches. So I assembled a few groups of 3 watches (one set of chronographs, one of divers, and one of dress watches) that varied in value by a factor of at least 10x and asked her to rank them in price. Obviously, for the lower-end pieces I purposely chose pieces that were obscure but high-quality and lovely. Her rankings had virtually no connection with reality, and she often liked the low-value pieces as much as (or even more than) the high-value ones. Looking at them through her eyes gave me a window back into the attitude that I had when I first started collecting.

You're a brave man. If my wife knew how much I paid for some of my watches ... 😲

But jokes aside, I feel the same way. Sometimes the simple pleasures I derive from wearing a nice, nearly NOS, obscure vintage JMWTO makes me wonder why I pay 10x more for another vintage watch...
 
Posts
741
Likes
864
Watch collecting is still a sub-culture. For most of the people that don't know much about the hobby would probably go for the watches that "hold value" well. That's probably the reason they want to buy a watch in the first place. They see the thousands of dollars as an "investment".
 
Posts
2,408
Likes
6,951
I recently went to a local NAWCC meeting where it consisted mainly of a trade mart of local dealers and watchmakers. I'm assuming most people present "got into watches" out of interest in the timepieces, but for the most part it appeared to me they have been so long into the business that watches now represent a way of making a living or earning a few extra bucks. The thought process was "if I get this watch for $60 I can maybe sell it for $85".

 
Posts
341
Likes
1,034
You're a brave man. If my wife knew how much I paid for some of my watches ... 😲

LOL, Ain't this the truth.

I think it all depends on the person. Granted I'm newer to this and certainly dont represent the vast majority of people, but the hunt is what fuels me. What I do think is applicable to most of us is, if they happen to grow in value that is just a wonderful tangental benefit. The vast majority of us though do not define ourselves by how much we lost or made in our watch collection.
 
Posts
2,070
Likes
14,602



“We are thrilled to see our projects continue to be appreciated on the global stage, and are proud to tell all clients of our limited editions that they represent great, long-term value, as proven by this result.”


Hmmmmm ::stirthepot::
 
Posts
29,242
Likes
75,619
the interest from collectors was in what we liked in a watch, not its investment value, with a hope that we might not lose too much when we sold it on or traded it with a fellow collector sometime well into the future (measured in years, not days or weeks).

I get what you are saying completely, and agree. For those who are saying things like there's always been money involved, and why should watches be any different than anything else, I think they are missing your point.

Money is always a consideration, but it hasn't always been the primary one, and that is where I see things heading. It is most evident in the Rolex world in my experience, where "resale value" seems to be a more important feature than actually liking the watch is (not just vintage, but modern too). I would not want to see the Omega world go this way, but I'm not sure what can be done to prevent this. It has been heading that way even here for a while now, where there are more threads about pricing compared to times in the past.

Not saying that all conversations about pricing and value are bad, because information is good to have IMO. Just don't want it to be the main focus personally. I just had someone PM me about a possible purchase of a watch and asked if I thought the pricing was okay - my response is that I don't really follow pricing, and I don't for the most part. I don't buy watches with the intent of selling them on, and I realize I may be in the minority, but losing or gaining money down the road isn't that important to me. If I like the watch and it's current price is reasonable, I buy it. What it does in the future is not my concern - I'll deal with that if/when I ever decide to part with it.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
1,010
Likes
2,982
I get what you are saying completely, and agree. For those who are saying things like there's always been money involved, and why should watches be any different than anything else, I think they are missing your point.

Money is always a consideration, but it hasn't always been the primary one, and that is where I see things heading. It is most evident in the Rolex world in my experience, where "resale value" seems to be a more important feature than actually liking the watch is (not just vintage, but modern too). I would not want to see the Omega world go this way, but I'm not sure what can be done to prevent this. It has been heading that way even here for a while now, where there are more threads about pricing compared to times in the past.

Not saying that all conversations about pricing and value are bad, because information is good to have IMO. Just don't want it to be the main focus personally. I just had someone PM me about a possible purchase of a watch and asked if I thought the pricing was okay - my response is that I don't really follow pricing, and I don't for the most part. I don't buy watches with the intent of selling them on, and I realize I may be in the minority, but losing or gaining money down the road isn't that important to me. If I like the watch and it's current price is reasonable, I buy it. What it does in the future is not my concern - I'll deal with that if/when I ever decide to part with it.

Cheers, Al

Yep, that there are segments of vintage watch collecting where resale value seems to be the most important feature is something I noticed earlier this year. And that worried me because if this spread into other categories, then it'd mean a lot of watches I really *wanted* would soon become unattainable by my standards. So I was in a mad dash this year to snag all the ones I wanted, and luckily managed to do so -- except for one.

And if I ever end up selling, I'll take what I can get, but it doesn't matter. By then I'll have probably put in 100% of their "value" in servicing anyway 😀.

Completely share this perspective.
Edited:
 
Posts
55
Likes
150
I'm not a watch collector in any sense owning only one inhereted piece. If I was to collect anything for future profit that would be crypto coins 😀
 
Posts
4,853
Likes
31,762
In the past, I was never really concerned that much about the price of watches I purchased. I bought what I could afford and what I really liked. My likes adjusted over time, and so have the price points of the watches I like. So while I never looked at these watches as an investment, they indeed have become an investment. They have evolved into investments due to the watches I have chosen to like/purchase (ie vintage Omega, vintage Speedmasters, LE Speedmasters) and the luck of my timing on becoming a watch collector.

I will continue to buy what I like and what I can afford, but with these elevated prices, my buying habits will (have) certainly changed.

I recently purchased the watch pictured below. It is the first non Omega watch I have purchased in 2+ years. I love it. It is a micro brand that was introduced to me at a GTG here in San Diego a few weeks back. It is a NODUS Retrospect on my Omega mesh bracelet.


 
Posts
3,133
Likes
5,561
If I like the watch and it's current price is reasonable, I buy it. What it does in the future is not my concern - I'll deal with that if/when I ever decide to part with it.

Ironically, that philosophy if backed with a good eye is IMO more likely to turn a profit than buying purely as an investment.

I have watches I could sell for more than I paid and others I'd lose on. I like them on their own merits irrespective of that. I've paid for the enjoyment of owning and wearing tiny miracles of engineering. Anything more is a bonus.