Maybe inconsistent was the wrong word. But I'm also not comparing the two instances to one another.
VET came back on to the track dangerously and pinched HAM, but no contact.
FIA needs to go back and look to see if any rules were broken, and they decide: yes.

VER got alongside LEC and pinched him off the track, contact WAS made.
FIA needs to go back and look to see if any rules were broken, and they decide: no.

Both of these "rules" that are being reviewed, are full of grey areas that leave too much room for interpretation in my opinion.

Just let 'em race!!!!

 

You are correct. Big picture, what the FIA has done goes well beyond this race and Canada.

 

@vbrad26

The rules are not grey. The application of rules are.

@Dogmann you can’t say Vettel deserved the penalty and Max didn’t. Both broke the rules. In the scheme of things most people and me and my racing friends feel Vettel didn’t nothing wrong other then break the letter of the law. Max yet again was on the wrong side of aggressive. Was it a technical violation of the rules? yes. Should it have been a penalty? Split. Should he have been black flagged for hitting Bottas in the pits a few weeks ago yes!

 

I totally agree. FIA has a long history of changing race outcomes (e.g. Senna and Prost at Suzuka) with their arbitrary rulings. The sport would be better off if they would just refrain from getting involved in all but the most flagrant/obvious of infractions.

 

@Foo2rama

Yes, agreed.
The grey area lies in the application of the rules.

 

I used to pay for Sky Sports channels just to keep up with F1 but that subscription lapsed a good few years back and I have no plans to renew.

I listened to the race on the BBC and other than Max V there didn’t appear to be much going on. Max is a very good driver but he does seem to get away with a few things

 

@Foo2rama

Actually I think you will find that not only can I say it but I have twice as whilst that may not be you and your friends opinion it is mine on how I saw it and I am free to say what I believe I saw.

But on both occasions I have said it I did not agree with the rule that the stewards were quoting but with another rule the one that says if a driver leaves the track they can not rejoin and gain an advantage on rejoining and that was without a doubt what Vettel did in that instance no room for doubt or any other conclusion on that IMHO.

I disagree Max was not on the wrong side of being aggressive if you watch all the replays carefully he was in front of LeClerc not by much but was in front and therefore had the right to keep the racing line LeClerc went off track limits because he could not cut back to the racing line as Max was there look again and you will see it is LeClerc touching Max not the other way round and Max had his steering lock full on to the right not towards LeClerc where as LeClerc was turning in on Max into this now occupied space. It also seems the people whose opinion really counts the Stewards with all their access to data and cameras and having spoken to both drivers and team representatives agree with me and my conclusion and not that of you or your friends whose opinions simply don't count in F1. You and your friends are of course both entitled to those opinions and to voice them.

Marc

 

@Dogmann

By friends discussing this with me.

F2 racer that tested 3 times for F1
An F3 license holder
A senior member of the Porsche NA team racing IMSA with 964’s 935’s and 917’s
Multiple people with years of lower level racing experience.

Not a single one thought Vettel broke the spirit of the rule, or what he did was wrong or unsafe.

Almost all thought the pit incident in Monaco was grossly under penalized.

In regards to last race. They mostly agree that Max broke the letter of the rule, but a penalty should not have been applied. The frustration is inconsistency in application of the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule. This is tied with a feeling of most professional drivers and many semi professional drivers that Max has had a history of getting away with things. This sometimes feels like it is at the urging of Liberty media (F1 owner) who is positioning him as the new face of F1 to try and appeal to younger viewers.

Most drivers I know feel he is reckless and in the previous 2 seasons took reckless chances due to his aggression and inexperience of youth. Schumacher was aggressive but not reckless. Max just seems to have an attitude even worse then his Dad and has the ability to be a great driver. The question is can he mature and stop making mistakes over and over and over of being too aggressive in the wrong spots and still stay fast?

 

F1 needs a new star and Verstappen is the Chosen One. He will be given a lot of leeway that a lot of other driver's would not. A lesser driver would have been penalized, but Verstappen is too important for the F1 poohbahs to lean too heavily on. That's just the way it is.

 

Just curious, which rule did Max break?

 

@Foo2rama

Impressive as your friends knowledge and experience may be they are still not official stewards at an F1 race and as such their opinions are just that their opinions and nothing else. So whilst they are entitled to their opinions I strongly disagree with them about Vettel as IMO he did break a rule that states if you leave the track you may not gain advantage on rejoining again. Its pointless re discussing this as the ruling was made and stands so time to move on or we can go round in circles for infinity.

I have no idea why or what relevance the unsafe release in Monaco has to do with what we are discussing now but yes it was an unsafe release and deserved and got a penalty as for a black flag really you can't be serious.

As for Max and his driving style it has indeed improved over this season compared to previous seasons but I do not think he is driving recklessly or dangerously even if he is a tough racer. Now if you or your friends seriously believe that Liberty media has the influence or power to determine what the stewards decide I think you are all delusional.

As for Schumacher not being reckless that really made me laugh and I'm sure if you asked Hill, Villeneuve and the many others he punted of the track they would also agree he was indeed both aggressive and reckless at times.

Whilst I am in no way an expert on Motor sport and its many rules or try portray myself as such I was the Racing Manager for a friend that competed in the British GT Championship driving a Porsche GT but that does not make my opinions any more or less valid then anyone else.

Marc

 

I just think that F1 is broken, too many rules, too many interpretations of the rules and too much power in the hands of too few people. F1 needs to get back to holding race meetings not processions, yes people will say that this race or that race was brilliant and that may be true but those races are far too infrequent.

Its a shame that there is more debate about rules than there is about 'driver XXX's' brilliant drive, we need to see wheel to wheel racing at all circuits, cars need to be changed to ensure that drivers can follow, challenge and pass other cars, circuits need to change to ensure that they provide plenty of passing opportunities.

If F1 is going to remain the pinnacle of motorsport it has to change, and change quickly.

 

Unfortunately sports is now infected with 'replay fever', any close call anywhere on the field of play is viewed countless times in slo-mo. Referees, umpires, stewards and, of course, the tv public all have an opinion on what the correct call is. The Rules! It is detrimental to the flow of the sport and no one seems to know how to get out of the trap we have put ourselves in. In the past an umpire would make the decision, people would jump up and down, wave their arms, scream and the play would resume. Not now.

 

@Dogmann

The issue here is in chapter four of appendix L of the FIA sporting code. It states: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited."

Aka the Schumacher clause, although in theory Senna also influenced it. Note: Technically this is also the same rule that Vettel supposedly broke.


Here is the difference. Vettel either broke a little to late, or something physical with the track or tires forced his slight off in which he rejoined the track in the only possible way. He did not on purpose cause Hamilton to go off of track. That was clearly racing, and anyone that has track experience clearly saw a racing incident not a rules violation.


Conversely, Max choose a path that clearly could only result in driving Leclerc into a collision or off track. Now go back and read the rule. He broke late forced the inside from a behind position and forced the other driver off of the course. Most of us feel it’s a technique to pass... overly aggressive and risky but it’s racing.

So if the FIA’s going to enforce letter of the law, then be consistent, not screw Ferrari over twice, or continue to treat Max in a more lax way then other drivers.

 

To Max's credit, he hasn't been as reckless after Monaco 2018. Before then, I agree that he was dangerous and got away with a lot of things. Seems like after he threw away a probably victory in Monaco last year he turned around for the most part (excluding the Ocon incident).

 

@Foo2rama

As I said you and your friends are entitled to what ever opinion you wish but so am I and as such it no longer makes any sense to continue to try and prove who's opinion is correct as we very obviously see things very differently and are very unlikely to ever agree on either Vettel or Schumacher or for that matter Ferrari.

Obviously for you as a Ferrari fan you see them as being hard done and to quote you "not screw Ferrari over twice" Where as I don't see Ferrari or their drivers being treated unfairly at all its just racing and compared to the stuff Ferrari and their drivers have pulled in the past minor issues in comparison.

Didn't the FIA stand for Ferrari International Assistance for the longest time ever in F1? and was a standing joke amongst commentators and fans alike.

You can continue to try and convince who ever you want with your opinion but mine is not going to change as I doubt is yours so that is the last on these particular issues from me as I can't see the point in endlessly going round in circles and getting now where new.

Marc

 

Perhaps I worry unnecessarily these days but tangling wheels was my worst nightmare in open wheel cars. The cars I raced long ago were either assembled from plumbing stock (tubular space-frames) or had a riveted aluminium chassis that reached no more than waist height when I was strapped into the car, everything above that was very thin glass-fibre. Looked good from the outside, but .... They come a bit higher in modern F1 I know.

I have watched someone die as a result of tangling wheels (F.Ford race at Snetterton, poor bugger was launched and landed upside down on the Armco on the pit straight). In my view actual contact in open wheel cars is an instant ticket to see the grown-ups in the stewards' room. Watching on TV is one thing, being there is something else entirely.

I was young once, long ago. Didn't win any races.

 

@Dogmann

I am not a Ferrari fan, never have been. In fact I hate Vettel. I’m more a fan of drivers, currently Hamilton and Ricciardo mostly. Note I think Vettel should have beat Hamilton.

I just want coherently applied rules. I’m also not saying Max should have received a penalty... but if they applied that rule to Vettel it should have been applied to Max esp when both penalties choices hurt the same team even if I don’t particularly like that team.

I was not always a Hamilton Fan but as he’s matured I like him a lot more. I’m very impressed with Bottas, Norris and Leclerc right now. I have never been impressed with Verstappen... I think he has a lot of potential and has had some great drives and raw talent but he is not mature enough and I’m not sure if he will have the ability to mature and stay fast.

 

Verstappen is our new "coming through!" Senna. Norris and Leclerc are going to have to fight to take the title of The Professor (Prost). My money is on Norris -- but perhaps a bit of Brit bias here

 

Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives. Other than the current state of American politics, Formula 1 is the best soap opera going.