Dear Gentlemen (I assume this is mostly a male dominated forum)

I have two questions regarding the Extract of the Archives.

1. In 2012 I got an Extract Certificate for my 2001 Speedmaster Professional purchased second hand without paperwork. I got a lovely hand signed certificate in a presentation folder.

In 2020 is all you get for what is a high fee for the service an electronic print at home document?

2. I have purchased second hand a Speedmaster Automatic Date.

Calibre 1155 (ETA 7750) 17 Jewel

2 x case numbers
1750043 & 3750043

Serial number on the watch back
5363 8035

But I cannot find a number on the movement.

Should I be concerned ...? Frankenwatch? It’s clear these weren’t Omega’s best work but it’s a beautiful watch but I need to know I have something worth keeping and it’s a genuine Omega. I’d like to get an Extract but can I without a movement number?

I really need opinions from people who know and particularly people who know the history of Omega from the late 80’s and early 90’s.

 

It would seem an odd model to Franken IMO as not a particularly sought after one. Some movement numbers can be tricky to spot.

Regarding the new extract, this thread is worth a read and might answer a few of your questions.... https://omegaforums.net/threads/new-improved-process-for-omega-extract-of-the-archives.99874/

 

It appears to be, but it doesn’t have to remain that way. I would not want to intentionally exclude half of the world’s population from participating in the conversation.

 

Several reduced Speedmasters don't have numbers on the movement. The 53,xxx,xxx number and the case numbers will provide the EOA if you choose to request one.

And you do get a miserable scrap of card to accompany the digital extract, not comparable to the previous certificate in my opinion.

 

Serial number:53638035
Article ref: 37111060

This should have a gilt (yellow) dial...

 

The subdials and indices are gilt, perhaps that’s what is being referred to?

 

No...the whole dial

https://www.watchfinder.com/Omega/Speedmaster Date/3711-10-60/23962

 

Archer, the picture on the post is the same dial as my watch but mine came on a leather strap ... I’ll be devastated if I’ve been dudded.

I did note there was a LE of 500 watches for the French Market for the 1992 Winter Olympics and these watches had a 17 jewel movement. Any chance Omega were using excess stock in tough times for the company?

 

I don’t know much about these, but if the 345.0043 case ref that leads to the white dial, and the serial number are both on the case back then surely there is a glitch in the system?

 

I think from reading bits and pieces on the net that there were some inconsistencies in some watches with the 17 jewel 7750 movement; I’m just trying to piece my watch’s history together. My watch has been inspected by two Omega trained Watchmakers. Worse case scenario at the moment is I have a Frankenwatch. Great hope, because I bought the watch because I love it, is that it’s original.

I’ve paid for an Extract from the Archives two weeks ago. I provided as much information and photos as I could. I wait with my fingers crossed.

 

The dial shown here:



Is not the correct dial for serial number 53638035 according to the Omega Extranet. So in my view this watch has been put together from various watches based on the information you have provided. It is not original.

I suspect the Extract will confirm this.

Cheers, Al

 

Case numbers tell you nothing about dials, or anything else about the details of the watch. Is it on a strap or bracelet? What colour are the dial and hands, etc. None of that is determined by the case number. That sort of information is determined by the reference number (aka model number, or PIC number). For example this specific two tone case is used on all of these different models:

33111000
33110099
33112000
33112099
33118000
37111001
37111002
37111003
37111004
37111006
37111007
37111008
37111009
37111010
37111011
37111012
37111016
37111020
37111050
37111051
37111052
37111055
37111060
37111080
37111098
37111099
37112001
37112002
37112003
37112004
37112006
37112007
37112008
37112009
37112010
37112011
37112012
37112016
37112020
37112033
37112050
37112051
37112052
37112053
37112056
37112058
37112060
37112080
37112098
37112099
37118003
37118008
37118013
37118033

If the "system" you are referring to is the vintage database, then someone who determines what information is shown in that database has to determine what model to show of the 54 available when someone searches on this case number. I can't speak for how they decide this, but I suspect that they pick the most popular/numerous of the 54 options available to show. That doesn't mean that what they show is right for the watch you might have in front of you, and the vintage database should be taken with a grain of salt for this very reason.

This is why using the case number as the "reference" number is not correct for watches of this era. The case number is a very limited tool. That is why the PIC or serial number is what I use to look up parts, because the case number can only tell you so much.

Cheers, Al

 

Al, does Omega actually provide a report that the watch is not original? I paid good money for it, AUD $2500 and I’ll take the seller to court and/or smash his reputation if I have too.

Every time the seller’s name is googled, his honesty will be bought into question.

 

My understanding is that they will send you a message that says they are unable to issue an extract for the watch. I don't know that it will say that the dial doesn't match, but when they look at the photos and look up the serial number as I have done, they will see it doesn't have the dial it is supposed to have on it.

 

I don't think many people have ever applied for an EOA for such modern watches.

Omega are unlikely to refuse an extract because the dial is the wrong colour. It is only refused if the serial number refers to a different case reference, or the watch is fake. That is impossible for this watch.

I also do not think a replacement dial(if it is?) makes it franken, or could you blame the seller for this, as it is very difficult to determine and an unlikely scenario.

 

Do you have a place where this information is stated by Omega? If not, where did this information come from?

If you don't call it a franken, then what would you call it? The dial is wring for this serial number, so at a minimum it is not original.

 

Omega has only very recently requested photos of the watch, previously it was provided based only on serial and case reference number. Even if they now have a picture included an original Omega dial from the same reference of a different colour is not enough to negate the watch being an Omega product. I doubt they would notice. It would need to be a movement serial number that does not match the recorded case number.

A dial replaced in service is not the definition of Franken. After all this is the correct model just a (possible)colour change. It does not even have an advantage/disadvantage in its value. Franken would be a movement from one model in the case of another with an assortment of parts gathered together to make a watch. This watch may or may not closely resemble a genuine model.

I still question if the PIC coming up from searching the serial number is 100% trustworthy. It seems odd that the dial would have been changed. If it has, no biggie.

 

I was asking what evidence you had for stating that the only times they refuse an extract is when the case number doesn't match, or when the product is a fake. You have not provided any answers for that, so I'll assume you have no evidence.

How do you know this dial was replaced in service? Since the movement doesn't have a serial number on these, it's possible that it's more than just the dial that is not original to this watch. Let's say the watch leaked at some point, and the original movement was rusted completely. Someone finds a movement with dial and hands on eBay, and slaps it into this case.

No, it's not the correct model. It is the same case number, but a different model of watch.

There is a watch that looks like what the OP has, so the TT case, white dial with gold accents, and brown leather strap on a deployant buckle. That is watch ref. 36102002. The serial number that the OP states is on the case brings up ref. 37111060.

On what basis do you not trust this? This is what Omega service centers all over the world, and watchmakers like me with accounts use to order actual parts to fix actual watches every day. This isn't some half complete database used for collector purposes, but what Omega themselves use to determine what are correct parts on a watch. Omega being able to service watches correctly with the right parts relies on the Extranet...it is the gold standard when it comes to looking up the details of a watch.

All I can say is that if the extract process deems this watch legit, the only conclusion is that the extracts are not worth the paper they are printed on. If models can be approved as correct with different dials on them, just because they share the same case, then no one should ever pay good money for a real Mitsukoshi Speedmaster, Japan racing, or any other valuable variant out there that has a different dial.

 

I suppose we are in a new area, watches with PIC codes have never been given EOAs before, or even if they qualified no one would have asked for one.

If you ask for an EOA for a Speedmaster 105.003 and it has a professional dial from a 145.0022 you will certainly get an extract. All they confirm is that the movement number matches the case number and details of production and delivery, It does not guarantee the parts are correct or even Omega.

This is stated in a big ugly disclaimer on the top of the new EOA. Have a look.

 

New? Not sure how new this is - from what I recall Omega has been offering extracts for watches made before 2000 for some time now (before the latest changes to the process). PIC's are not new - watches with them have been made since at least the early 90's, if not before.

So are you saying that the extracts that list the special hand are fake extracts? Because clearly they list more than what you say they do...



I have an extract I ordered this year that confirms the specific dial variant on the watch (this one says gilt dial with silvered counters, to be specific) as well as the two tone bracelet, and the two tone case.

I'm well aware of the disclaimer, as I have ordered two extracts so far this year, and I expect to order many more.

Again if I sent Omega photos of say a Japan racing model with the racing dial that is a model 35704000, or a Misukoshi ref 35703100 (or any one of the 30 or so Speedmasters that use this same case, but have a different dial than a regular 3575000), and the serial number was for a regular 35705000, I would not expect them to issue an extract for it. Otherwise, why would they even ask for photos?

If they did they did issue one, I would hope they would at least list the correct dial variant on the extract, but in the past when there has been a discrepancy, they have cancelled the extract. The only difference is now, you don't get your money back apparently.