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  1. ironmandreamer

    ironmandreamer Feb 13, 2020

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    B9F1B0C7-6F10-4045-9D29-E806001496CE.jpeg 3C1EDC80-82C2-4ACF-B00B-BE236B7AC80E.jpeg 0B7D4254-7BFD-4765-A527-8F775E3F545D.jpeg DFB6E928-95AD-403A-B64B-8C914170CBA4.jpeg F74DC34D-4F0B-439C-9F8F-F3EEA19F42A5.jpeg E012002C-AF55-4991-AA56-8C378AA2C624.jpeg 278E5FCC-6008-4D5C-8FBF-6254F2812BA2.png 39DE2985-0A2E-4008-A781-AD75A322F7E5.png Dear Gentlemen (I assume this is mostly a male dominated forum)

    I have two questions regarding the Extract of the Archives.

    1. In 2012 I got an Extract Certificate for my 2001 Speedmaster Professional purchased second hand without paperwork. I got a lovely hand signed certificate in a presentation folder.

    In 2020 is all you get for what is a high fee for the service an electronic print at home document?

    2. I have purchased second hand a Speedmaster Automatic Date.

    Calibre 1155 (ETA 7750) 17 Jewel

    2 x case numbers
    1750043 & 3750043

    Serial number on the watch back
    5363 8035

    But I cannot find a number on the movement.

    Should I be concerned ...? Frankenwatch? It’s clear these weren’t Omega’s best work but it’s a beautiful watch but I need to know I have something worth keeping and it’s a genuine Omega. I’d like to get an Extract but can I without a movement number?

    I really need opinions from people who know and particularly people who know the history of Omega from the late 80’s and early 90’s.
     
  2. Tet

    Tet I prefer Dilmah do try it Feb 13, 2020

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  3. DaveK

    DaveK Yoda of Yodelers Feb 13, 2020

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    It appears to be, but it doesn’t have to remain that way. I would not want to intentionally exclude half of the world’s population from participating in the conversation.
     
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  4. simonsays

    simonsays Feb 13, 2020

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    Several reduced Speedmasters don't have numbers on the movement. The 53,xxx,xxx number and the case numbers will provide the EOA if you choose to request one.

    And you do get a miserable scrap of card to accompany the digital extract, not comparable to the previous certificate in my opinion.
     
    kov likes this.
  5. Archer

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 13, 2020

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    Serial number:53638035
    Article ref: 37111060

    This should have a gilt (yellow) dial...
     
  6. simonsays

    simonsays Feb 13, 2020

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    The subdials and indices are gilt, perhaps that’s what is being referred to?
     
  7. Archer

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 13, 2020

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  8. ironmandreamer

    ironmandreamer Feb 29, 2020

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    Archer, the picture on the post is the same dial as my watch but mine came on a leather strap ... I’ll be devastated if I’ve been dudded.

    I did note there was a LE of 500 watches for the French Market for the 1992 Winter Olympics and these watches had a 17 jewel movement. Any chance Omega were using excess stock in tough times for the company?
     
  9. simonsays

    simonsays Feb 29, 2020

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    I don’t know much about these, but if the 345.0043 case ref that leads to the white dial, and the serial number are both on the case back then surely there is a glitch in the system?
     
  10. ironmandreamer

    ironmandreamer Feb 29, 2020

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    I think from reading bits and pieces on the net that there were some inconsistencies in some watches with the 17 jewel 7750 movement; I’m just trying to piece my watch’s history together. My watch has been inspected by two Omega trained Watchmakers. Worse case scenario at the moment is I have a Frankenwatch. Great hope, because I bought the watch because I love it, is that it’s original.

    I’ve paid for an Extract from the Archives two weeks ago. I provided as much information and photos as I could. I wait with my fingers crossed.
     
  11. Archer

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 29, 2020

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    The dial shown here:

    [​IMG]

    Is not the correct dial for serial number 53638035 according to the Omega Extranet. So in my view this watch has been put together from various watches based on the information you have provided. It is not original.

    I suspect the Extract will confirm this.

    Cheers, Al
     
  12. Archer

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 29, 2020

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    Case numbers tell you nothing about dials, or anything else about the details of the watch. Is it on a strap or bracelet? What colour are the dial and hands, etc. None of that is determined by the case number. That sort of information is determined by the reference number (aka model number, or PIC number). For example this specific two tone case is used on all of these different models:

    33111000
    33110099
    33112000
    33112099
    33118000
    37111001
    37111002
    37111003
    37111004
    37111006
    37111007
    37111008
    37111009
    37111010
    37111011
    37111012
    37111016
    37111020
    37111050
    37111051
    37111052
    37111055
    37111060
    37111080
    37111098
    37111099
    37112001
    37112002
    37112003
    37112004
    37112006
    37112007
    37112008
    37112009
    37112010
    37112011
    37112012
    37112016
    37112020
    37112033
    37112050
    37112051
    37112052
    37112053
    37112056
    37112058
    37112060
    37112080
    37112098
    37112099
    37118003
    37118008
    37118013
    37118033

    If the "system" you are referring to is the vintage database, then someone who determines what information is shown in that database has to determine what model to show of the 54 available when someone searches on this case number. I can't speak for how they decide this, but I suspect that they pick the most popular/numerous of the 54 options available to show. That doesn't mean that what they show is right for the watch you might have in front of you, and the vintage database should be taken with a grain of salt for this very reason.

    This is why using the case number as the "reference" number is not correct for watches of this era. The case number is a very limited tool. That is why the PIC or serial number is what I use to look up parts, because the case number can only tell you so much.

    Cheers, Al
     
  13. ironmandreamer

    ironmandreamer Feb 29, 2020

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    Al, does Omega actually provide a report that the watch is not original? I paid good money for it, AUD $2500 and I’ll take the seller to court and/or smash his reputation if I have too.

    Every time the seller’s name is googled, his honesty will be bought into question.
     
  14. Archer

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 29, 2020

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    My understanding is that they will send you a message that says they are unable to issue an extract for the watch. I don't know that it will say that the dial doesn't match, but when they look at the photos and look up the serial number as I have done, they will see it doesn't have the dial it is supposed to have on it.
     
  15. simonsays

    simonsays Feb 29, 2020

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    I don't think many people have ever applied for an EOA for such modern watches.

    Omega are unlikely to refuse an extract because the dial is the wrong colour. It is only refused if the serial number refers to a different case reference, or the watch is fake. That is impossible for this watch.

    I also do not think a replacement dial(if it is?) makes it franken, or could you blame the seller for this, as it is very difficult to determine and an unlikely scenario.
     
  16. Archer

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 29, 2020

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    Do you have a place where this information is stated by Omega? If not, where did this information come from?

    If you don't call it a franken, then what would you call it? The dial is wring for this serial number, so at a minimum it is not original.
     
  17. simonsays

    simonsays Feb 29, 2020

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    Omega has only very recently requested photos of the watch, previously it was provided based only on serial and case reference number. Even if they now have a picture included an original Omega dial from the same reference of a different colour is not enough to negate the watch being an Omega product. I doubt they would notice. It would need to be a movement serial number that does not match the recorded case number.

    A dial replaced in service is not the definition of Franken. After all this is the correct model just a (possible)colour change. It does not even have an advantage/disadvantage in its value. Franken would be a movement from one model in the case of another with an assortment of parts gathered together to make a watch. This watch may or may not closely resemble a genuine model.

    I still question if the PIC coming up from searching the serial number is 100% trustworthy. It seems odd that the dial would have been changed. If it has, no biggie.
     
  18. Archer

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 29, 2020

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    I was asking what evidence you had for stating that the only times they refuse an extract is when the case number doesn't match, or when the product is a fake. You have not provided any answers for that, so I'll assume you have no evidence.

    How do you know this dial was replaced in service? Since the movement doesn't have a serial number on these, it's possible that it's more than just the dial that is not original to this watch. Let's say the watch leaked at some point, and the original movement was rusted completely. Someone finds a movement with dial and hands on eBay, and slaps it into this case.

    No, it's not the correct model. It is the same case number, but a different model of watch.

    There is a watch that looks like what the OP has, so the TT case, white dial with gold accents, and brown leather strap on a deployant buckle. That is watch ref. 36102002. The serial number that the OP states is on the case brings up ref. 37111060.

    On what basis do you not trust this? This is what Omega service centers all over the world, and watchmakers like me with accounts use to order actual parts to fix actual watches every day. This isn't some half complete database used for collector purposes, but what Omega themselves use to determine what are correct parts on a watch. Omega being able to service watches correctly with the right parts relies on the Extranet...it is the gold standard when it comes to looking up the details of a watch.

    All I can say is that if the extract process deems this watch legit, the only conclusion is that the extracts are not worth the paper they are printed on. If models can be approved as correct with different dials on them, just because they share the same case, then no one should ever pay good money for a real Mitsukoshi Speedmaster, Japan racing, or any other valuable variant out there that has a different dial.
     
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  19. simonsays

    simonsays Feb 29, 2020

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    I suppose we are in a new area, watches with PIC codes have never been given EOAs before, or even if they qualified no one would have asked for one.

    If you ask for an EOA for a Speedmaster 105.003 and it has a professional dial from a 145.0022 you will certainly get an extract. All they confirm is that the movement number matches the case number and details of production and delivery, It does not guarantee the parts are correct or even Omega.

    This is stated in a big ugly disclaimer on the top of the new EOA. Have a look.
     
  20. Archer

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 29, 2020

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    New? Not sure how new this is - from what I recall Omega has been offering extracts for watches made before 2000 for some time now (before the latest changes to the process). PIC's are not new - watches with them have been made since at least the early 90's, if not before.

    So are you saying that the extracts that list the special hand are fake extracts? Because clearly they list more than what you say they do...

    [​IMG]

    I have an extract I ordered this year that confirms the specific dial variant on the watch (this one says gilt dial with silvered counters, to be specific) as well as the two tone bracelet, and the two tone case.

    I'm well aware of the disclaimer, as I have ordered two extracts so far this year, and I expect to order many more.

    Again if I sent Omega photos of say a Japan racing model with the racing dial that is a model 35704000, or a Misukoshi ref 35703100 (or any one of the 30 or so Speedmasters that use this same case, but have a different dial than a regular 3575000), and the serial number was for a regular 35705000, I would not expect them to issue an extract for it. Otherwise, why would they even ask for photos?

    If they did they did issue one, I would hope they would at least list the correct dial variant on the extract, but in the past when there has been a discrepancy, they have cancelled the extract. The only difference is now, you don't get your money back apparently.