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Early Longines

JohnLy
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I was going through some watches I bought about 25-30 years ago for my wifeto see if they still run and whether I should send out to be serviced. I ran across this early Longines I purchased for her. When I first bought it the internet did not exist and never thought about contacting Longines to see if I could get an archive. Back then that was not very important.
It has a very low serial number (2833998) which dates it to 1912 - 1913. I don't know exactly when Longines started producing wrist watches but according to their web site it was 1913 and it was a caliber 13.33Z for a single button chronograph. Dial and movement are in rough condition but all original. Sorry for the picture quality took some quick ones with the IPhone.
Think
IMG_6325.JPG IMG_6327.JPG IMG_6328.JPG IMG_6329.JPG
I will contact Longines and see what they have to say about it, if anyone has any information would appreciate hearing from you.
 
Wibbles
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*long time lurker* 馃榾 FWIW I too have an early(serial no: 1911) Longines of a similar design, only in a man's size. I'm afraid one of the better photos I have of it, alongside a silver cased "trench" from 1916 and a railway issued PW from the late 20's IIRC.
2vis8pf.jpg

Nickel cased snapback. It came to me in a bit of a state. Blackened with the years and the dial had more dodgy hairlines than a wig convention. Luckily I was able to source a near identical replacement, the only difference being the Longines script was written in the usual place under the red "12" on the original.

So it seems Longines were producing wristwatches including men's wristwatches earlier than was thought. Or they used older movements when the trend started to take off? Though one would expect radium dials and hands aimed at the men's market(they didn't come in until after circa 1913 IIRC).
 
JohnLy
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Wibbles Wibbles
*long time lurker* 馃榾 FWIW I too have an early(serial no: 1911) Longines of a similar design, only in a man's size. I'm afraid one of the better photos I have of it, alongside a silver cased "trench" from 1916 and a railway issued PW from the late 20's IIRC.
2vis8pf.jpg

Nickel cased snapback. It came to me in a bit of a state. Blackened with the years and the dial had more dodgy hairlines than a wig convention. Luckily I was able to source a near identical replacement, the only difference being the Longines script was written in the usual place under the red "12" on the original.

So it seems Longines were producing wristwatches including men's wristwatches earlier than was thought. Or they used older movements when the trend started to take off? Though one would expect radium dials and hands aimed at the men's market(they didn't come in until after circa 1913 IIRC).
Love your description of the hairlines on your original dial. The replacement one looks good. Wondering how big is the case? I am a big fan of enamel dials, nice depth to them and a degree of difficulty to make them.
Thanks for sharing the info and picture.
 
dodo44
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One can find very early Longines wristwatches (~1915) with 15.26 movements that are quite large (38mm). The more common 13.34 is quite a bit smaller.
 
Wibbles
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JohnLy JohnLy
Wondering how big is the case?
Top to bottom(not including the lugs) it's 38mm, side to side not including the crown it's 30mm. Quite thick from front to back, with quite a curve to the case. The 1916 trench is 35mm.
I am a big fan of enamel dials, nice depth to them and a degree of difficulty to make them.
Same here J. I love them and their longevity. About their only disadvantage is their delicacy, though IMH that's a little exaggerated. In all the enamel dials I've seen close up that had cracks they emanated from the dial feet. I suspect that over tightening of dial feet screws by watchmakers down the years doesn't help.

As for difficult in making them, I'm not so sure about that either. Sure those marques that still make them today talk much about the difficulty of the process, but consider that when these were the commonest way to dial a watch(other than metal dials) they were made in their many many thousands and were the face of pretty cheap to very expensive watches. And many of them were far more intricate than those made today by even the "big names". Having looked through a loupe at a very high end modern marque's enamel dial the printing wasn't as crisp as those three I pictured above. I suppose economies of scale and a large and experienced skill base was in play in the old days.
 
JohnLy
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dodo44 dodo44
One can find very early Longines wristwatches (~1915) with 15.26 movements that are quite large (38mm). The more common 13.34 is quite a bit smaller.
Thanks Dodo44 for the info, greatly appreciated
 
JohnLy
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Wibbles Wibbles
Top to bottom(not including the lugs) it's 38mm, side to side not including the crown it's 30mm. Quite thick from front to back, with quite a curve to the case. The 1916 trench is 35mm. Same here J. I love them and their longevity. About their only disadvantage is their delicacy, though IMH that's a little exaggerated. In all the enamel dials I've seen close up that had cracks they emanated from the dial feet. I suspect that over tightening of dial feet screws by watchmakers down the years doesn't help.

As for difficult in making them, I'm not so sure about that either. Sure those marques that still make them today talk much about the difficulty of the process, but consider that when these were the commonest way to dial a watch(other than metal dials) they were made in their many many thousands and were the face of pretty cheap to very expensive watches. And many of them were far more intricate than those made today by even the "big names". Having looked through a loupe at a very high end modern marque's enamel dial the printing wasn't as crisp as those three I pictured above. I suppose economies of scale and a large and experienced skill base was in play in the old days.
Thats a reasonably good size considering the era. I agree that the main culprit causing hairlines on the enamel dials are watchmakers. Either they tighten the dial feet screws too much or in reverse when they remove the dial they do not loosen them adequately and actually use a screwdriver to pry the dial up.
I have been a big fan of Pateks 2526, the enameling they did on the dials on that watch is almost perfection. I have a modern Richard Lange with a double sunk enamel dial which a very well done but still not a pleasant to the eye as the 2526. There is an and skill that sadly I think the industry lost through the years.
 
JohnLy
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Larry S Larry S
Great article here.
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/longines-13zn-history
My beloved 13.33 Mono Pusher for which I have an archives extract. 36MM
275147-d6f21b51645ca371c23c7d6435807960.jpg
Thanks for the attachment, I will enjoy reading it. Are there any books out there specifically on Longines other than John Goldbergers?
BTW, love your 33.33. I am looking for one just like it but not to successful.
 
Larry S
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I am told Goldberger is the best. Mostly I trust the forum!
 
Gstp
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Watch size seems to shrink after the great war until the 30s and into the 40s with those ridiculous small 30-33 mm mens watches. Not uncommom with wristwatches from around 1915 to be 38 mm.
 
dodo44
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Gstp Gstp
Watch size seems to shrink after the great war until the 30s and into the 40s with those ridiculous small 30-33 mm mens watches. Not uncommom with wristwatches from around 1915 to be 38 mm.

Agreed. The 15.26 movement can be found in both pocket and wrist watches; the early wristwatches were pocket watches with lugs. Large Longines wristwatches from that time period are still quite rare. The one below sold for a crazy price (not market range at all) but that shows you that they are not that common.

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/...arge-and-early-stainless-5841744-details.aspx
 
Gstp
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dodo44 dodo44
Agreed. The 15.26 movement can be found in both pocket and wrist watches; the early wristwatches were pocket watches with lugs. Large Longines wristwatches from that time period are still quite rare. The one below sold for a crazy price (not market range at all) but that shows you that they are not that common.

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/...arge-and-early-stainless-5841744-details.aspx

I was of course talking about wristwatches in general. The one in your link is costly but wow it's a thing of beauty
 
Wibbles
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Aye, 38mm would be rare enough, but do come up every so often and go for far far less than that example, which IMHO was a crazy price to pay for a not particularly early(1926) example. 35mm is the commonest size for the Longines/Omega/Zenith men's of the period. About three years ago I just missed out on bidding on a Zenith Signal Corp that was 39mm and it went for 500 euro. My own Longines Trench I paid around a hundred quid for. To be fair that was before collecting old watches was such a more widespread "thing". Though I did get my 1911 Longines pictured above for 180 euro in 2012. The replacement dial cost me 30 euro(and came with a movement so have spares).

I have noticed Trench watches and the other early stuff has gone up and down in fashion and prices. Was high enough in the early noughties, dropped by around 2008ish and after a little blip upwards has dropped again. If you had two grand burning a hole in your pocket, you could assemble a nice little collection with a bit of digging. Though I reckon they're one Hodinkee article away from going way up once more.

Interestingly that Trench style stayed somewhat fashionable in the UK, long after it went passe elsewhere. I've seen swing lugged Trench style watches from Longines among others with UK hallmarks well into the 1930's. The most recent one I've seen was a Longines hallmarked for 1938 and could have easily passed as a Great War example. It was even a half hunter case style.
 
L茅pine
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JohnLy JohnLy
Thanks for the attachment, I will enjoy reading it. Are there any books out there specifically on Longines other than John Goldbergers?
BTW, love your 33.33. I am looking for one just like it but not to successful.


If you are researching Longines, it would be good to read the House Of Longines website. It is a lot of work to put it together with fragments of that former site all over the internet and read LonginesPassion.IT the original website.
 
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