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Early Explorer 1016, with a Twist

  1. Nobel Prize Spell Master! Feb 12, 2021

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    If it is "My" conclusion you ask for, please don't go crazy if it's not agreeable.

    I would say it is more a belief than a conclusion. Conclusion being a result of analysis and fact seeking and belief being more of an opinion based on "existing" data and perception.

    So my belief is that the SS engraving is not factory but an after the fact addition. Wether the addition is made as quality control (ironic if it is so) or costume compliance...by a Rolex sub-division or by a third party on the distribution line..I don't know.

    But I do believe that at some point this watch was made, by Rolex, and had the factory engravings inside and in the movement, perfectly made, consistent from piece to piece through thousands of examples...and it was sealed and ready to go...and it did not have that stainless steel engraving in it. Whomever, wherever and for whatever reason it is there I don't think it's the result of a production line step. It is part of a separate process that affects different watches at random times in different ways. The opposite of what any product line of any brand seeks to accomplish.

    That's my belief.
     
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  2. t_swiss_t Feb 12, 2021

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    Not sure if you read where I noted that the stuff on there was present because I hadn't cleaned the watch. Magically, much of that "extreme amount of pitting" cleaned off with q-tips. And if it had been welded to fix pitting by the engravings, why leave the tiny amount of pitting present on the right side of the first picture that overlaps the GN in "design"? [The part that's rubbed away partially in the middle of "registered design" is likely because it was worn on a thick leather strap that abutted the case right there.] But I'm sure you'll find reasons why this is further evidence of aftermarket welding/re-engraving.

    IMG_6904.jpg

    IMG_6906.jpg

    I like this take on it. In the end, the level of evidence that can be produced for anything uncommon in this space will reach no higher than that of a 'case series.' So I will never prove it to the level that some here demand. That's fine, I'm not trying to sell the watch to them, just enjoying it and showing an interesting example.

    Moreover, this is probably the least important portion of the watch; I just thought the case back engraving was a curious thing that is seen from time to time from watches of this period. I didn't even notice it for the first day or so (because engraving is light), until I remembered seeing these on other examples, and took my loupe out. I don't think it should be taken too seriously or think, in any way, that it should add to the value of the watch or that those that don't have it are deficient/incorrect. If that were the case, the evidence should be more substantial. I do find the offense that some have taken to this amusing though.

    In the end, I like both scenarios.
     
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  3. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Feb 12, 2021

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    What I have repeatedly said and implied is that it difficult to believe that Rolex would allow such work to leave their factory, or be produced under their supervision. There is nothing inconsistent between that point, and the separate observation that such poor work is easy to replicate, and leads to further problems/complications. Perhaps I needn't repeat the point again, but you have provided no basis on which to dismiss it.

    With regard to dials, I believe that you are wrong. As you know, the vast majority of dials were outsourced, and companies like Gübelin and Tiffany, etc., would almost certainly have had control of their signatures. I am not certain that they would have full control (e.g. placement), but the design and ultimate execution, yes.

    That's a tortured point. The analogy, as far as it goes, is not important at all. There were countless companies that produced different types of engravings on the inside and outside of case backs, so that was never a point of contention. The points, which I made clear, were primarily the shocking distinction in quality, and secondarily the redundancy, and neither directly apply to the HERMES examples.
     
    Edited Feb 12, 2021
  4. 993watch Feb 12, 2021

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    Where is proof of your assertation that the engravings are not original? I believe they are original based on examples in my collection where engraving quality is inconsistent.
     
  5. 993watch Feb 12, 2021

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    It's one thing to debate the quality control and inconsistencies from this period. It's another for you to persist in criticizing a piece that you have yet to provide irrefutable evidence to support your position.
     
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  6. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Feb 12, 2021

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    Irrefutable evidence? I have, from the beginning, claimed to be very skeptical. The OP obviously has no irrefutable evidence of originality, either, so I don't understand your point.
     
  7. Modest_Proposal Trying too hard to be one of the cool kids Feb 12, 2021

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    Neither side will ever have irrefutable evidence. That is the nature of vintage.
     
  8. 993watch Feb 12, 2021

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    Well... OP posted plenty of content and pics to present the provenance of this watch. It's really a stretch for you or others to claim someone would have engraved the caseback after the fact, given the condition of the piece and lack of service evidence from pics. A non-original engraving of this sort on a caseback wouldn't do anything to add or subtract value either. If you are going to challenge the engraving and it's origin, then the burden is on you to provide reasonable evidence to the contrary.
     
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  9. Wlcutter Feb 12, 2021

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    At some point, a preponderance of evidence should be seen as significant enough to undercut all the buy-what-abouts offered, honestly. I'm curious what it *would* take for you to accept the watch as not only (obviously) authentic, but the caseback markings as overwhelmingly likely to have been done by Rolex as well. Honestly curious.
     
  10. airansun In the shuffling madness Feb 12, 2021

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    Actually, I think this is the other way around: It’s a stretch to assume, because of condition and the ‘remembered history’ of the watch that the caseback ‘engraving’ is factory original. Plenty of times, I’ve discovered that family and original owners have forgotten whole aspects of a watch’s history.

    Maybe yes, maybe no, I think. And, if it can be established that the engraving is factory original, maybe that makes it rare enough to contribute to its appraised value.

    Challenging, to me, means raising questions. The OP, a knowledgeable collector, posted his hypothesis about a piece he recently picked up. His hypothesis is being tested by challenging questions.
     
  11. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Feb 12, 2021

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    At this point, the OP has provided two, very limited, partial photos of the case back. How are you able to judge the condition on that basis? I hope that he does provide more, so that we might be able to further parse out the questions surrounding the engraving.

    We have also yet to see, on this thread, an example of an equally poor "stainless steel" engraving. One helpful member linked to a Phillips example, which was superficially compelling due to the overall condition of the watch. But the quality of that engraving was arguably higher, while at the same time there were other disturbing issues. The 6542 to which I linked had an engraving that is far superior.

    Yes, at some point, but to my mind we're not at that point yet. The OP, and at least some other Rolex collectors themselves, seem to agree that the quality of these markings varied wildly. They are also willing to accept remarkably poor examples as original. It then follows, as I have mentioned several times now, that such markings would be extremely easy to fake, and, given the high number of vintage Rolex that circulate in the market, coupled with their high values, there can be no doubt that at least some re-engaved examples have been bought and sold. So to assume that a watch with a particularly poor engraving is necessarily "factory original" would be naïve, in my view.

    We can continue to debate the OPs watch, but especially without better photos of the case back and engraving, there isn't yet sufficient evidence to convince me, or some others, of originality.
     
    Edited Feb 12, 2021
  12. 993watch Feb 12, 2021

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    1. While that may be true, evidence presented shows a watch that was not serviced and barely worn... likely put away for years.

    2. I highly doubt it would diminish value, just as initials on these vintage pieces in top-top condition have negligible impact. The exception would be initials or engraving that confirmed a person of notoriety's ownership.

    3. I'm all for intellectual debate to challenge what we believe to be true. There comes a point where evidence to the contrary may not be available and the provenance stands on it's own merit along with studied examination of all the other details, which the OP has provided. It's also a bit odd to think someone would engrave that on their caseback rather than something much more common, such as initials.
     
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  13. Wlcutter Feb 12, 2021

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    But by this logic, to be clear, you're arguing that because something's possible, your questions+doubts could, essentially, never ever be resolved. Ever. Even if someone who literally made the website for this reference, which you referred to; someone plenty of folks recognize as being as close to an expert as could be asked for; someone who, sure, could potentially be engaged in an enormous deception but who, if not, has been nothing but transparent about the watch, its provenance, etc.; even if all of those factors have been met, your doubt remains. Is that correct? I specifically asked what it would take for you to accept this as what it's being presented as; that hasn't been answered.
     
  14. airansun In the shuffling madness Feb 12, 2021

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    It’s not hard to imagine all sorts of improbable scenarios where somebody thought engraving that was a clever idea. If the engraving was a little deeper, a little more accomplished, then factory applied would not seem so improbable, to me at least.

    It is a spectacular watch, I must say, and I would be proud to have it in my collection. I don’t think questioning the assertion about the caseback engraving is meant to disparage OP or even the watch itself.
     
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  15. 993watch Feb 12, 2021

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    That's really the bottom line as I see it. It's interesting and fun to debate the quirks of vintage Rolex back in this era, yet at some point certain aspects are moot in terms of value and impact to the merit of a piece such as this find.
     
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  16. airansun In the shuffling madness Feb 12, 2021

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    I’ve been troubled for a long time about Rolex engraving issues, particularly from the 60’s and early 70’s, as have many others. There are plenty of threads on TRF where various engravings are questioned, and for good reason.

    There’s also no question but that there are plenty of Rolex watches where the engravings have been added or ‘reengraved’ by various people for legitimate and illegitimate reasons. This is not to suggest anything about the OP’s watch but just to explain that debates about Rolex engravings from this period are both justified and important, in my eyes at least, because I learn from all of them.
     
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  17. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Feb 12, 2021

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    No, I'm simply arguing that to my mind there are still unanswered questions, and the evidence is not yet conclusive.

    Andrew may well be an expert, but it is silly to suggest that he shouldn't be challenged on a particular issue because of his status. I never remotely suggested that he was attempting to deceive. What I did suggest is that confirmation bias can be a powerful force, and especially after one has spent significant money on something.

    I don't doubt his superficial report of the provenance of the watch, but at the same time, and as others have pointed out, families of deceased owners of watches don't always get all of the details right.

    What would it take for me "to accept this as what it's being presented as"? If you mean "original", it would minimally take more and better photos. But I have no doubts that Andrew's beliefs are sincere.
     
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  18. cvalue13 Feb 12, 2021

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    ^^^ this is the only thing that seems a tortured assertion given:

    51B32BEA-A5B1-48F9-A275-5708A35102EA.jpeg

    Of course your main points were the particularly terrible quality and the redundancy of SS in particular - but were they not couched in a general air of disbelief that there would ever be a reason to be redundant on inside/outside caseback, and also be of almost ANY variation in quality?

    C’mon, man, it’s easy:

    You should put forward a good reason you think there is no chance Rolex would in its entire history double stamp SS (given any number of reasons this could have been the case), and no chance that a single watch could have ever escaped Rolex’s grasp with a particularly bad engraving (given that plenty of fairly bad did escape)

    I’d be genuinely interested to hear this explained purely by deduction and armchair assertions (which you admit to being limited to).

    Maybe more interested, even, then hearing @t_swiss_t having to explain that it affirmatively must have happened - which you are so keenly looking for (despite reciprocating, as far as I can tell)
     
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  19. 993watch Feb 12, 2021

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    I fully agree that debate on unscrupulous enhancements or forged counterfeits is justified and important for the collector community. In this specific case, the provenance and evidence presented make it very unlikely that this was a "doctored" up piece. "Stainless Steel" is not an engraving that would materially make this piece worth more.
     
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  20. Scarecrow Boat Burt Macklin, FBI Feb 12, 2021

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    I think the real point of this thread was for @Tony C. to give us a lesson in straw man fallacies. ;)
     
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