Early Explorer 1016, with a Twist

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@cvalue13

Your above post is so riddled with nonsense that I will not waste time with a point by point refutation. You're also now resorting to the kind of dishonest argumentation that marred at least one of our previous encounters.
 
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3. I'm all for intellectual debate to challenge what we believe to be true. There comes a point where evidence to the contrary may not be available and the provenance stands on it's own merit along with studied examination of all the other details, which the OP has provided. It's also a bit odd to think someone would engrave that on their caseback rather than something much more common, such as initials.
What you describe here is almost an "article of faith" more specifically: If it cannot be disproven...then it can be accepted as truth.

I can make a few assertions on any topic that cannot be disproven...I doubt I'll get a medal for being a truth holder.

On the "value" of engravings it is a personal taste thing. There are collectors that love engravings as they see them as part of the story of a watch....while others dislike engravings because....they're a little too personal a story. One mans engraving is another mans de-facing. It's like tattooes. Some love them (me) others don't (my mother)

One thing is for sure, the engraving does not make the watch any more authentic or any less authentic, it's just an interesting anecdotal factor and, clearly, a conversation starter.
 
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What you describe here is almost an "article of faith" more specifically: If it cannot be disproven...then it can be accepted as truth.

I can make a few assertions on any topic that cannot be disproven...I doubt I'll get a medal for being a truth holder.

On the "value" of engravings it is a personal taste thing. There are collectors that love engravings as they see them as part of the story of a watch....while others dislike engravings because....they're a little too personal a story. One mans engraving is another mans de-facing. It's like tattooes. Some love them (me) others don't (my mother)

One thing is for sure, the engraving does not make the watch any more authentic or any less authentic, it's just an interesting anecdotal factor and, clearly, a conversation starter.
Regarding "truth", this specific engraving and evidence presented of the overall condition and history is nonsensical imho... as related to casting an aspersion on the value and desirability of the 1016 subject at hand.

While I agree with you on personal taste, I also think it's in context to the whole of an item. For example I don't think any serious collector would turn down my 6536/1 because it has 3 initials engraved on it's caseback.
 
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@cvalue13Your above post is so riddled with nonsense that I will not waste time with a point by point refutation. You're also now resorting to the kind of dishonest argumentation that marred at least one of our previous encounters.

I think you’re talking about back when you were giving public shoulder massages to V. Putin based on your internet research and I dared suggest he’s got a bit of the baddy in him based on my ~decade of working with an arm of the Russian Federation?

🙄

I guess no zebras lose their stripes around here

I think the real point of this thread was for @Tony C. to give us a lesson in straw man fallacies. 😉

I think more generally @Tony C. has missed the exercise he once channeled to another thread, and is at this point in this thread only re-stretching his legs of recalcitrance, indignance, and yes - an over-deployment of “fallacy” catch-phrases last seen in my Philo 101 course at uni.

I mean, the guy’s still ignoring even the moment he unwittingly recited OPs own website back to OP - for which any level of humility would at least let us all take a momentary station break to share a beer over. Like the stories of opposing troops in the trenches pausing in Cmas eve to jointly sing a Christmas carol and share a smoke.

Anyway, at this point, I seem to see eye-to-eye completely with @Nobel Prize, who I adjudicate (unilaterally) to be putting forward @Tony C. ’s best position but absent all the @Tony C. mixed in

....

Which means, @t_swiss_t - if ever there’s more info on SS engravings...
 
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Interesting thread and quite an education, like a good film my opinion has flipped back and forth.

My curiosity lead me to have a look at the engraving on my humble ‘69 Airking and realise that the ‘Registered Design’ is pretty badly written by modern standards (excuse the end link rub) but even more interesting is just how tiny that writing is. I could definitely see someone learning to engrave that small would make quite a few dodgy looking efforts.
 
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I think you’re talking about back when you were giving public shoulder massages to V. Putin based on your internet research and I dared suggest he’s got a bit of the baddy in him based on my ~decade of working with an arm of the Russian Federation?

I suggest that you refrain from being dishonest, and you respond with further dishonesty. Déjà vu.

And congrats on the irony of the Zebra remark.
Edited:
 
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I suggest that you refrain from being dishonest, and you respond with further dishonesty. Déjà vu.

And congrats on the irony of the Zebra remark.



Lighten up, @Tony C.

Nobody thought you were actually giving shoulder rubs to V Putin
 
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The only thing that could make this more 'OF' is if this was a sales thread. Really hope i get time to read in full.
 
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Regarding "truth", this specific engraving and evidence presented of the overall condition and history is nonsensical imho... as related to casting an aspersion on the value and desirability of the 1016 subject at hand.

While I agree with you on personal taste, I also think it's in context to the whole of an item. For example I don't think any serious collector would turn down my 6536/1 because it has 3 initials engraved on it's caseback.
probably not, unless they had an equal option without them 😀
 
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I’ve been troubled for a long time about Rolex engraving issues, particularly from the 60’s and early 70’s, as have many others. There are plenty of threads on TRF where various engravings are questioned, and for good reason.

There’s also no question but that there are plenty of Rolex watches where the engravings have been added or ‘reengraved’ by various people for legitimate and illegitimate reasons. This is not to suggest anything about the OP’s watch but just to explain that debates about Rolex engravings from this period are both justified and important, in my eyes at least, because I learn from all of them.

I agree that it's good to air these things. In this case, the OP has provenance that he finds convincing, which adds confidence to his belief in the engravings (although obviously even a one-owner watch can be tampered with). However, that does not mean that every poor-quality engraving one sees on the back of a Rolex is original and authentic.
 
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Well, why are people hand engraving unit-numbers, serial numbers, movement numbers, "to my first wife with love" etc. on the caseback or on the case itself?
I've seen pretty much every kind of engraving on pretty much every kind of watch... Why people do that? Don't know.
If you like I could engrave your watches with whatever engraving you like. I got pretty shaky hands - so I could guarantee you that "Rolex factory" look. 😉

I would say the STAINLESS STEEL on the outer caseback was engraved ex-factory -- but still possibly by a Rolex authorized agent and/or retailer -- and was done upon import, probably to North America, due to the tariff schedule on solid steel watches vs. chrome top, silver, white gold, etc. Rolex did a lot of funny things just to save a couple of bucks on import duties back in the day (17j movements to America vs. 25j of the same calibers for Europe, for example) so I would bet that the notation relates to that. I've definitely seen this similar scratchy "hallmark" on the odd Rolex from late '50s/early '60s so I think it was just done briefly and somewhat randomly in response to some or other shifting import tariff schedule at the time.

Also, one often sees an added "ACERO" (Steel) engraving on the back many original Serpico & Laino-retailed Rolex of the '50s & '60s. So there is certainly precedent for this being solely a retailer's add-on, which might explain the relative roughness of the engraving, as well as its rarity in the wild since it could be peculiar to just a few retailers who sold only a statistically small amount of Rolex (like S&L).
As for the between-the-lugs engravings, there is a case to be made for re-engraved (either by Rolex or an indy watchmaker at service) due to bracelet end-piece wear but I have also seen some pretty poor work that was almost certainly factory original. And, in fact, sometimes if the engravings are too good on these older watches that actually indicates that it's a fake case! 😲

Finally, on the lume: I would be wary of the low geiger readings and then assuming that the dial "only" has a mix of Tritium (beta emitter) and standard Radium-226 (alpha emitter) just because there are not a lot of micro-Sieverts being picked up. Rolex was really messing around trying to boost the luminous capabilities of their tool watches between their introduction in the mid-'50s and the mandated T<25 Tritium standard in '62-'63 (again in response to United States-originated restrictions on radioactivity in watches & clocks). So the numbers/hands on this Explorer could just have a different phosphor material than the bars & triangle, with the numbers similar to what is found throughout the early to mid-60s on Rolex Sports dials, a compound with a very excitable reaction to ambient sunlight/UV light even to this day. But the types of luminous compound on this dial could still have been excited by the same radioactive element originally.

OR we could be looking at a mix of older Radium for the bars & triangle and other, "newer" exciters like Radium-228 (aka Mesothorium, a beta emitter with a half-life of just 5.75 years) and Strontium 90 (beta emitter with half life of 29 years), both of which it is well known that Rolex deployed until the Tritium rules in the USA, world's biggest market, along with the Sr-90 Bakelite 6542 GMT scandal slightly prior, made such shenanigans unprofitable, technically illegal and overly risky from a liability standpoint.

As a last note, I would also add that I don't believe I've ever seen a mix and match on Explorer lume quite like this example. Seen it plenty on the "6" bars of Submariners of the period, as a previous poster mentioned, but not on a 6610 or 1016. So it's a very interesting anomaly and it would be fascinating to get a chemical analysis of the differing lume types to find out what they are really made of (presumably the hands and the numerals are of the same or very similar material based on the matching UV reaction). From the time lapse, the non-numeral markers do react like a lot of Radium lume I've UV'ed before, while the numerals react similarly to a lot of different types off '60s Rolex Sports lume (Ex Point Gilt-era, Underline Gilt-era, post-Underline Gilt-era and early Matte dial-era). But again, these are my speculative and general impressions about the lume absent a real scientific analysis.

Just my 2¢ & YMMV.
Best,
T.
Edited:
 
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probably not, unless they had an equal option without them 😀
None that I'm aware of that surpass it, in level of complete condition.😀
Edited:
 
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An example of retailer-applied extra "steel" markings just to have it in the thread (albeit in Spanish 😉):
3-1-580x302.jpg
(Pic via Rolex Passion Report)
Keep in ind that it would be very easy to polish out such an engraving, which may also account for their uncommon nature at this late date.
Best,
T.
 
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Very nice watch indeed. Absolutely no doubt the engraving is original. See below for an almost NOS 5508 with the same engraving. I don't think the caseback engraving is any worse than lots of 'registered design' engravings between the lugs - the quality of those engravings is highly variable. Rolex just didn't care back in those days - watches were a tool to be used; they had no idea that people would be analysing parts in meticulous detail with macro photography 60 years later. Though I get the feeling some are just arguing for the sake of arguing...

https://www.phillips.com/detail/rolex/CH080119/213
Thank candy coated jeebus someone found this example -- I was Googling and checking my hard drive for like an hour! 😁👍
Best,
T.
 
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I would say the STAINLESS STEEL on the outer caseback was engraved ex-factory -- but still possibly by a Rolex authorized agent and/or retailer -- and was done upon import, probably to North America, due to the tariff schedule on solid steel watches vs. chrome top, silver, white gold, etc. Rolex did a lot of funny things just to save a couple of bucks on import duties back in the day (17j movements to America vs. 25j of the same calibers for Europe, for example) so I would bet that the notation relates to that. I've definitely seen this similar scratchy "hallmark" on the odd Rolex from late '50s/early '60s so I think it was just done briefly and somewhat randomly in response to some or other shifting import tariff schedule at the time. Also, one often sees an added "ACERO" (Steel) engraving on the back many original Serpico & Laino-retailed Rolex of the '50s & '60s. So there is certainly precedent for this being solely a retailer's add-on, which might explain the relative roughness of the engraving, as well as its rarity in the wild since it could be peculiar to just a few retailers who sold only a statistically small amount of Rolex (like S&L).

Makes sense. It would be interesting to learn if most, or all of the known ones with the rough SS engravings were originally sold in the U.S.

Thanks Tom!
 
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None that I'm aware of that surpass it, in level of complete condition.😀
Just saying, I agree with you, but if you had two identical watches one with and one without engraving which would you take?
 
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An example of retailer-applied extra "steel" markings just to have it in the thread (albeit in Spanish 😉):
3-1-580x302.jpg
(Pic via Rolex Passion Report)
Keep in ind that it would be very easy to polish out such an engraving, which may also account for their uncommon nature at this late date.
Best,
T.
Now this makes more sense....much more sense
 
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if you had two identical watches one with and one without engraving which would you take?

Really, really identical? Exact same price?

I might chose based on serial number then. Numerology!