Early Constellation looks like 168.004 but has no case ref

Frank_Rewind · Feb 3, 2026

Hi 👋
Bit of a head scratcher here. Was offered an early solid 18k rose constellation that I initially thought was a 168.004 with the wrong crown. I asked my contact to let me see the case reference number but instead of a standard case number it has a long serial number. To me it looked like a sixty’s jumbo ref but it comes with a 505 instead of a 561… case has several hallmarks and has been tested at 18k. Anyones got any ideas? Could it be a prototype?

Peemacgee · Feb 3, 2026

Welcome @Frank_Rewind

A puzzle indeed.
Do you have any info on the movt other than the calibre? - e.g. serial number?
How about a pic of the medallion?

The photos aren't great but it looks like it has been repainted - and there is definitely something going on with the orientation of the dial.(and movement?)

There was a 'prototype' 'hidden crown Constellation (of sorts) the 14.918, an early reference (1960) before the six figure reference -Ringo Star owned one - but it should still have the original reference number in the case back and it also ran with a cal 561.

The case isn't a 168.004 case but we have seen very early French cases looking very similar to this (by early I mean early to mid 50s)

Edit - and I presume you meant 14k not 18k?

Frank_Rewind · Feb 3, 2026

I think the dial is solid 18k with onyx markers. The reason the dial isn’t straight is that the winding stem is missing and the movement was loose. The case back is stamped Fab Suisse. The hallmarks are hard to make out. I thought it looked like an elephant. Certainly not the eagle head normally associated with French 18k.

Peemacgee · Feb 3, 2026

it is a Swiss case.
The hallmarks are 'squirrels' - the Swiss mark for 14k gold.
I don't believe the dial is solid gold - they have particular characteristics missing from this dial (and I don't ever recall seeing a gold dial in a 14k case)

How about the movt serial number?

Frank_Rewind · Feb 3, 2026

You’re right, it is 14k! I hadn’t spotted that. Maybe American then?

Peemacgee · Feb 3, 2026

There is something not 'right' about the caseback - apart from the very heavily polished medallion (which looks a little 'iffy') if gold, it should have a brickwork observatory building.

F Frank_Rewind
You’re right, it is 14k! I hadn’t spotted that. Maybe American then?

The Swiss produced a lot of 14k watches (including Constellation) but the US is the best place to find them.

Peemacgee · Feb 3, 2026

The upshot is - unless you are buying it for the 14k gold content (and I would have it all checked thoroughly again) it would be a hard pass.
The dial is a poor redial.
The dial possibly came from a late 50s Constellation (but now with a paint job)
The crown is incorrect (Seamaster crown)
The case is not a 'hidden crown' case.

Hope that helps.

Peemacgee · Feb 3, 2026

I should have mentioned that the cal 505 is a no-date movement seen in the 2852.
504 is the early date calibre - but are relatively quite uncommon

Dan S · Feb 3, 2026

That is a very rough watch. I'm not sure why you would want to spend real money on it.

Davidt · Feb 3, 2026

No question about the dial being repainted. Look at the alignment/centering of the minute markers against the edge of the centre portion of the dial.

JimInOz · Feb 3, 2026

F Frank_Rewind
Maybe American then?

Not American, definitely Swiss. The case was made by Antoine Gerlach of Genèva.

MSNWatch · Feb 3, 2026

It has the feel of a fake.

Early Constellation looks like 168.004 but has no case ref

Frank_Rewind

Peemacgee

Frank_Rewind

Peemacgee

Frank_Rewind

Peemacgee

Peemacgee

Peemacgee

Dan S

Davidt

JimInOz

MSNWatch

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