Forums Latest Members

Does Patek still use Alligator leather for their straps?

  1. kip595 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    865
    Likes
    1,566
    I actually grew up down the street from an alligator farm in Louisiana...and when I say down the street, I mean I often biked by it, knew the owners since childhood, often went there just to hang out (I am a simple country boy at heart), and when neighborhood dogs or cats disappeared, it usually meant one of the scaly fellas was roaming around.

    The farm was a breeding farm and leather supplier; at one point they had a deal that something like 15% of the hatchlings went to the wild - don't know the details; it was just a generally quiet - albeit very VERY smelly - local farm. I do remember they did HAVE to document their numbers and show to the state that it was not detrimental to the wild population and actually beneficial to it.

    The process, at least there, was to raise them to a certain size, somewhere around 6-8 feet IIRC, keep them separated if any got aggressive so they wouldn't attack each other and ruin their own hides, literally, and then harvest them. This generally consisted of a swift and solid whack with a short machete or cane knife to the base of the skull, severing the spinal cord. They would then be skinned, gutted, the hides tanned and the meat processed as in any slaughterhouse per FDA standards. The meat usually went to restaurants (ok, a lot was also served at neighborhood barbecues - it's really not bad at all, but you've got to cook it right or it's chewy!) and the hides went to various leather buyers, which did range from general wholesalers to some companies purchasing 'perfect' hides individually for high end retail. It's very uncommon these days for any retailer to use non-farmed hides from creatures like this, as the scars they accumulate in the wild render them largely useless, even for things like straps - why hunt down a 15 footer you can get five watch straps total out of when you can raise an 8 footer and get two pair of boots, half a dozen handbags and clutches, and dozens of straps out of?

    Point is, alligator is sustainable and intentionally sustainably sourced.

    I remember at the age of ten or so riding with my mom and taking my uncle, who worked at the farm for a few years, to the hospital to get part of a gator tooth taken out of his hand because one of the big scaly's had taken a chomp at him and the tooth had snapped when my uncle hit it with the cane knife. It apparently didn't warrant an ambulance in anyone's opinion, but they did give him the rest of the day off.

    Annnd now that I've finished writing that, boy did I have a quirky childhood!
     
    Alfista88 and lexieb007 like this.
  2. lexieb007 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    328
    Likes
    124
  3. kip595 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    865
    Likes
    1,566
    Provided the paperwork is in order, there are very few places to my knowledge hides like this cannot be brought or sold to - documentation once inside the country and made a final product is another matter. The article serves as a stellar example: no fashion powerhouse would risk an imperfect hide being used on a flagship good to save a few euro, quid, or dollars. Now if they sourced the properly sourced hides from an 'improper sourcer' i.e. "Hey these fell off'a some truck, you want a deal?" that'd be a different matter, but again if the company is reputable and known, less likely.

    It's akin to Rolex expecting a metric ton of 'Oystersteel' and getting, say standard aircraft grade stainless and going, "Hey, who'll notice"

    These laws, not just CITES but most animal laws of this nature, seek to reduce the profits of poaching, thus hopefully reducing the number of poachers - hence why ivory, a much more readily shown item as the only legal varieties are mostly grandfathered-in (pre ivory trade laws, etc) is much easier to stymie - still difficult.

    To answer the question in a word, Yes. Export/Import of this nature is, in general, allowed.

    BUT it has to follow the letter of the law in not only where it come from, but where it's going.
     
    Alfista88 and lexieb007 like this.
  4. lexieb007 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    328
    Likes
    124
    https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/46583/3009637 ....I was told the American Alligator was on the EU endangered list... so now someone has questioned this, I am checking the facts and these are the facts... It's on the "red list" but of "least concern"... not sure what that means? anyway FWIW..
     
    Edited Feb 10, 2021
  5. lexieb007 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    328
    Likes
    124
    Sure. In my country the paperwork takes over 3 months (you need CITES paperwork from both the exporter and the importer) and this has to accompany the goods. And the application process has been slowed down by COVID... in other words as far as the basic consumer is concerned buying online as most of us do these days (even if the consumer knew of the laws...and I'd take it as a guess 99% wouldn't).....even if the purchased from reputable dealers, as far as I can tell complying with theses CITES laws is next to impractical... anyway. FWIW...
     
  6. cvalue13 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    3,979
    Likes
    8,393
    Don’t dig too deep there, or you’ll also find that the definitions of “free range” or “organic” are not as standardized or meaningful as you’d hope.

    this is what I’d expect as well (though caiman isn’t as supple or pliable as alligator, and is instead a calcified scale) - especially for smaller items like watch bands, because any sizeable alligator skin would leave nearly zero relief in the scope of such a small piece of leather. With a caiman, however, a watch band could still show some scale pattern in such a small area.

    And because caiman are also in family Alligatoridae, they’re “alligators” for all marketing purposes :D
     
    lexieb007 likes this.
  7. lexieb007 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    328
    Likes
    124
    I mean there are literally dozens of Alligator straps available on ebay for example for export from the US... how many say the purchaser (along with the supplier) needs to apply for CITES paperwork and then wait 3 months to collate all this and then this has to travel with the goods... what ebay seller would do that? Any deal would be long gone and over... Cheers
     
  8. texasmade Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    2,188
    Likes
    2,313
    It means not endangered. Bigger concern is destruction of habitat over illegal harvesting.
     
    lexieb007 likes this.
  9. lexieb007 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    328
    Likes
    124
    Sure. I guess it's goodbye to the Caiman then.. they will be bound now to be plundered to extinction...
     
  10. lexieb007 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    328
    Likes
    124
    Thanks for the clarification.
     
  11. lexieb007 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    328
    Likes
    124
    Anyway clearly Alligator straps are overrated and way too much hassle to import ..and who wants to be labeled anti wildlife?..... I think I will keep wearing my speedie on a nato :)
     
  12. cvalue13 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    3,979
    Likes
    8,393
    They’re farmed.

    But, if you object to all hides (totally defensible position) then caiman are just one example of your general objection that of course rules out all leather straps.

    But what about your Patek?
     
  13. lexieb007 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    328
    Likes
    124
    ^dude I was just asking for clarification on the laws (re Alligator) because I thought they looked cool (I saw one on a mates watch the other day)... I didn't know Omega did Alligator, but I knew PP did.. so that's why I asked in this subforum...
    I mean like I said you can buy labelled free range chicken so why not guaranteed farmed alligator?
    Geez...
    Like it's not as if the consumer laws are 100% easy to understand or anything. Or that the consumer gets clear labelled product..
    Anyway I now know the facts and clearly buying one online will be a complete pain.
    Cheers
     
  14. cvalue13 Feb 10, 2021

    Posts
    3,979
    Likes
    8,393
    upload_2021-2-10_23-28-3.gif
     
    lexieb007 likes this.
  15. gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Feb 11, 2021

    Posts
    12,169
    Likes
    15,629
    When you buy that “free range” chicken, does the package have the address of the farm? Even if it does, how can you tell the difference before it is cooked? As I said before, you have to have faith.

    From the article you posted earlier, I’ll take it you are from Australia. Very tough import laws there and I can certainly understand the reasoning.

    I understand why the Australian authorities would have seized the handbag in the article you posted. The woman who brought it into the country became the “importer” when she purchased the bag abroad. It is always up to the importer to supply the proper paperwork to Customs. This would include purchases by mail. That’s likely true in almost every country. It’s just that it’s almost impossible to enforce these laws through national mail systems that handle millions of packages daily. So people buy online and take their chances.
    gatorcpa
     
    Alfista88 and lexieb007 like this.
  16. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 11, 2021

    Posts
    26,344
    Likes
    65,056
    So someone was caught not following the rules, and your conclusion is that the rules don't work? ::facepalm1::
     
  17. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 11, 2021

    Posts
    26,344
    Likes
    65,056
    Agreed. Despite the uninformed rantings of the OP in this thread, the large companies like Patek (and Omega, and many others) follow the rules. They are also not shipping straps through the mail...

    Years ago I recall seeing on another forum that I won't name, a story about a high end brand having a shipment of watches come to the US without the proper CITES paperwork. I can't be sure since it was a while ago, but I think it might have been Lange. When the Fish and Wildlife officers reviewed the shipment, they found no paperwork, and every single strap was cut a few mm's from the watch lug on both ends, and the watches were sent on their way.

    Most countries take this VERY seriously as signatories to the treaty.
     
    lexieb007 likes this.
  18. Evitzee Feb 11, 2021

    Posts
    6,250
    Likes
    11,558
    As others have said we, as end users, just have to have faith that the rules are being followed. Of the new watches I've bought over the last 20 years or so with gator/croc straps most have had the little yellow and white paper tag on one of the keepers showing the strap was CITES certified. I just can't worry about things like this.
     
    lexieb007 likes this.
  19. texasmade Feb 11, 2021

    Posts
    2,188
    Likes
    2,313
    Haha. I didn't read the article but when you put it that way...
     
  20. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 11, 2021

    Posts
    26,344
    Likes
    65,056
    Interesting - where does this information come from? I order a lot of "Alligator" straps - they are almost always identified as Alligator Mississippiensis as in the example I posted on page 1.