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ping pong patina
·it seems harder and harder these days to tell whether a piece is relumed or not.....
Dial and hands restoration : before/after
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watchtinker
·Dear Rob,
thank you very much for your kind and prompt reply.
I checked the documents you addressed, of which I was aware, and I would like your opinion on some specific points, highlighted below.
First of all, I have worked for many years running an official Omega Service Center (which is somewhat different from my actual position of Omega certified watchmaker because at that time I had to act strictly according to Omega instructions) and I remember that you had to get rid of the radium and tritium dials for every watch you received. This means that the manufacturer itself explicitly considered a luminove dial a legit replacement.
This said, I really see no difference in replacing tritium with luminova: they are both luminous materials and serve to the same scope.
In principle I agree. However, I believe that the watches under consideration in this thread are certainly not of historic, rarity or quality value: they are industrial artefacts produced in thousands of units. This would not be the case for some cloisonne dials, whose hand painted enamels have to be preserved, but the dials we are talking about are simply printed ones!
Overall, I see and I understand your sympathetic attitude to collectors but from my perspective I still see no crime in reluming a Speedmaster, when needed.
Thank you again,
Maurice
thank you very much for your kind and prompt reply.
I checked the documents you addressed, of which I was aware, and I would like your opinion on some specific points, highlighted below.
To relume a Tritium dial to it's original specifications you would have to replace "Tritium" with "Tritium" and as far as I know Tritium in most counties is now a restricted and controlled substance.
This said, I really see no difference in replacing tritium with luminova: they are both luminous materials and serve to the same scope.
Respect the original character and property of all artefacts, especially those of historic, rarity or quality value, and advise the customer accordingly. If your customer requests work that, in your opinion, will unduly jeopardise this character, refuse the work politely but firmly and explain to your customer your reasons for doing so.
Overall, I see and I understand your sympathetic attitude to collectors but from my perspective I still see no crime in reluming a Speedmaster, when needed.
Thank you again,
Maurice
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Horlogerie
·Hello Maurice,
Thank you for the detailed reply.
I believe that the collectors market and what value/rariety collectors place on various watches is what determines if they fit the definition of "quality value". Indeed if you look at the table in the BHI document "The servicing of clocks and watches" most 20th century mass produced factory watches are not considered as needing any special treatment at all, you can do what you please. But we know that the collectors market is what determins the actual price and collectability of any watch. So based on the collectors, I would say that many mass produced watches are considered as "quality value", and as time goes on the older ones become more rare and more valuable.
Last point, I think where collectors get upset is not so much with a T dial being replaced with a L one, but where an original T dial is repainted with L, which takes away from it's originality.
In my case, I love Super Luminova and apply it to my watches when and if I want to, anything I own is for my pleasure, not the possible value of what someone thinks some possible time in the future if I sell it. In other words, if I own a watch and want to apply lume, I do it...it's mine and I can do with it what I want. Customers...well that can be tricky for the reasons I have mentioned, they tend to forget your advice when the value is loss due to modifications you have done, even if you advise them of a possible loss.
All the best,
Rob
Thank you for the detailed reply.
I believe that the collectors market and what value/rariety collectors place on various watches is what determines if they fit the definition of "quality value". Indeed if you look at the table in the BHI document "The servicing of clocks and watches" most 20th century mass produced factory watches are not considered as needing any special treatment at all, you can do what you please. But we know that the collectors market is what determins the actual price and collectability of any watch. So based on the collectors, I would say that many mass produced watches are considered as "quality value", and as time goes on the older ones become more rare and more valuable.
Last point, I think where collectors get upset is not so much with a T dial being replaced with a L one, but where an original T dial is repainted with L, which takes away from it's originality.
In my case, I love Super Luminova and apply it to my watches when and if I want to, anything I own is for my pleasure, not the possible value of what someone thinks some possible time in the future if I sell it. In other words, if I own a watch and want to apply lume, I do it...it's mine and I can do with it what I want. Customers...well that can be tricky for the reasons I have mentioned, they tend to forget your advice when the value is loss due to modifications you have done, even if you advise them of a possible loss.
All the best,
Rob
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watchtinker
·Hello Rob,
thank you for your reply. It is a pleasure to exchange views with you.
I am pleased to be in line with the BHI recommendations, given that most 20th century mass produced factory watches are not considered as needing any special treatment at all.
I am aware that the collectors market is what determines the actual price and collectability of any watch, but I have also seen too many wild fluctuations over the years not to be aware that many bubbles inflate and burst unpredictably.
However, the current search for value in Speedmasters, ignited by ad hoc books, fora, valuations and auctions, is something different from I have seen in the past first because it involves honest and mass produced watches which have been around for a very long while and second because it has moved the attention also to specimens in very average or even poor conditions.
From what you say I understand that the problem is that, whithin the current price action, most collectors do not buy a watch because they like it but for the simple reason that they believe that they will be able, if they wish, to sell it with a profit at a later time. For this reason they are not interested in restoring the timepiece to its original specifications, but only to preserve its presumed value according to the general opinion.
In this respect, your words have been very enlightening to me.
Best wishes,
Maurice
thank you for your reply. It is a pleasure to exchange views with you.
I am pleased to be in line with the BHI recommendations, given that most 20th century mass produced factory watches are not considered as needing any special treatment at all.
I am aware that the collectors market is what determines the actual price and collectability of any watch, but I have also seen too many wild fluctuations over the years not to be aware that many bubbles inflate and burst unpredictably.
However, the current search for value in Speedmasters, ignited by ad hoc books, fora, valuations and auctions, is something different from I have seen in the past first because it involves honest and mass produced watches which have been around for a very long while and second because it has moved the attention also to specimens in very average or even poor conditions.
From what you say I understand that the problem is that, whithin the current price action, most collectors do not buy a watch because they like it but for the simple reason that they believe that they will be able, if they wish, to sell it with a profit at a later time. For this reason they are not interested in restoring the timepiece to its original specifications, but only to preserve its presumed value according to the general opinion.
In this respect, your words have been very enlightening to me.
Best wishes,
Maurice
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watchyouwant
·you can still buy waterbased tritium as NOS on ebay.....kind regards. achim
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djmusicman
·Really interesting stuff, thanks guys.
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M'Bob
·In many fields of restoration, materials are specified as using original if possible, or as close as possible if original is not available. Luminova, colored to reflect where the watch would likely be based on its age, should certainly be okay. The much bigger issue issue, I believe, is the quality of the application, not whether the molecular structure of the materials are the same as years back.
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watchtinker
·In many fields of restoration, materials are specified as using original if possible, or as close as possible if original is not available. Luminova, colored to reflect where the watch would likely be based on its age, should certainly be okay. The much bigger issue issue, I believe, is the quality of the application, not whether the molecular structure of the materials are the same as years back.
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Pianist
·I think all points of vue are interesting.
Some people will never buy a watch that has been relumed, and others don't care.
If the dial of a Speedmaster is in bad condition, I think that the watch will be more desirable with a good relume.
For example, look at this Ed White : does somebody here think it would be a sacrilege to relume it ?
Some people will never buy a watch that has been relumed, and others don't care.
If the dial of a Speedmaster is in bad condition, I think that the watch will be more desirable with a good relume.
For example, look at this Ed White : does somebody here think it would be a sacrilege to relume it ?
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oddboy
·Interesting dial.
Are there after shots?
Are there after shots?
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STANDY
··schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collectorIn principle I agree. However, I believe that the watches under consideration in this thread are certainly not of historic, rarity or quality value: they are industrial artefacts produced in thousands of units. This would not be the case for some cloisonne dials, whose hand painted enamels have to be preserved, but the dials we are talking about are simply printed ones!
Maurice
Speedmaster are not historic, rare or quality ?
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Bienne2998
·I really appreciate this thread. A conversation on the respectful level like the one between Maurice and Rob is seldomly seen on fora. It's great for simple watch lovers like me to have experienced watchmakers sharing their view here. Conversations like this help to widen one's own opinion on such topics.
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wsfarrell
·I really appreciate this thread. A conversation on the respectful level like the one between Maurice and Rob is seldomly seen on fora. It's great for simple watch lovers like me to have experienced watchmakers sharing their view here. Conversations like this help to widen one's own opinion on such topics.
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SpeedTar
·Excellent thread!
I just bought a bad condition dial with no tritium on it for my 105.012. I was thinking of relume it with tritium (I have may be a lead), if i don't and will consider to leave it alone I guess
I just bought a bad condition dial with no tritium on it for my 105.012. I was thinking of relume it with tritium (I have may be a lead), if i don't and will consider to leave it alone I guess
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fjf
·This was the roman theater in Sagunto:
After some idiotic politicians decided to fix it:
As you can imagine, the scandal among educated people was legendary....
After some idiotic politicians decided to fix it:
As you can imagine, the scandal among educated people was legendary....
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SpeedTar
·The point is you can restore or revive with original specs to enhance the functionality or aesthetic not do some slaughtery work! 😀
