Constellation Calendar? So what do we think this really is?

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Peemacgee

·Jul 13, 2020·Purrrr-veyor of luxury cat box loungers

An auction alert popped up in my in box earlier, for the Antiquorum Hong Kong sale later this month.
The listing is for an 18k 2943/2954.
The watch has a Connie dial but not marked as a Calendar.
It purports to have a cal 504, which would be okay. (No serial no. given)
It also has a Connie snap-back (heavily polished)
- but I’ve never seen lugs like that on any Constellation let alone a 2943.
(I’m pretty sure you couldn’t even cut the 2943 lugs into that shape)

So, what do we think the case belongs to - a heavily refinished Seamaster?

 

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SkunkPrince

·Jul 13, 2020

Not every calendar watch was marked "CALENDAR". You'd have to check many examples of this reference to see whether it might appear both ways. But, I would not automatically assume it's wrong.

 

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seekingseaquest

·Jul 13, 2020

Hmm looks like a Seamaster main case to me.

 

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Peemacgee

·Jul 13, 2020·Purrrr-veyor of luxury cat box loungers

SkunkPrince

Not every calendar watch was marked "CALENDAR". You'd have to check many examples of this reference to see whether it might appear both ways. But, I would not automatically assume it's wrong.

I agree that every Connie with a calendar complication wasn’t marked ‘Calendar’ but the 2943 was meant be the CALENDAR (I think some 2852s were marked Calendar also) and I think those without it on the dial must be few and far between. (If there are any)
But it was the case I was specifically questioning rather than the dial.

 

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ConElPueblo

·Jul 13, 2020

Something about it makes me say that it's a French case.

I don't recall seeing Seamaster cases with that type of bezel. They are usually flat.

 

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Maskelyne

·Jul 14, 2020

Neither have I seen a Seamaster case (bezel) like that. ConElPueblo might have come up with a clue regarding the origin of the case. Some hallmarks would be nice to see...

 

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ConElPueblo

·Jul 14, 2020

Maskelyne

Neither have I seen a Seamaster case (bezel) like that. ConElPueblo might have come up with a clue regarding the origin of the case. Some hallmarks would be nice to see...

That we cannot see any is a clue in itself. A Swiss case is required to have two hallmarks on the case, these are 99% of the times on the rear of the lugs.

 

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Peemacgee

·Jul 14, 2020·Purrrr-veyor of luxury cat box loungers

Maskelyne

Neither have I seen a Seamaster case (bezel) like that. ConElPueblo might have come up with a clue regarding the origin of the case. Some hallmarks would be nice to see...

ConElPueblo

That we cannot see any is a clue in itself. A Swiss case is required to have two hallmarks on the case, these are 99% of the times on the rear of the lugs.

I take the point about the bezel -since I don’t study Seamasters, I was just throwing it out there as a possibility.

the French are renowned for producing beefy cases but if it was meant to replicate a 2943 in any way, then the lugs are surely way too broad at the base.

Perhaps a French Seamaster case, with their version of the bezel?

I noticed that there were no obvious hallmarks.
The French often wack one right in the middle of the case back too - although it’s so polished it could have been there.

there might be something on the bottom left lug - bearing in mind that whatever the case was originally I think it has been severely abused

 

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Maskelyne

·Jul 14, 2020

ConElPueblo

That we cannot see any is a clue in itself. A Swiss case is required to have two hallmarks on the case, these are 99% of the times on the rear of the lugs.

Yes I am aware of that and you have a good point there. We do need better pictures...

 

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aprax

·Jul 14, 2020

To me it looks like a Swiss case with a correct bezel but altered (machined and shortened) lugs. The spring bars are very close to the case and need to be bent, even?
Pure speculation on my part, of course, based on this close up:

 

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Peemacgee

·Jul 14, 2020·Purrrr-veyor of luxury cat box loungers

aprax

To me it looks like a Swiss case with a correct bezel but altered (machined and shortened) lugs. The spring bars are very close to the case and need to be bent, even?
Pure speculation on my part, of course, based on this close up:

I do think the lugs have been cut down but I can’t see how you might form the stumpy, shoulderless, square lug on the watch at auction from the curved shouldered lug of the 2943
Compare the lugs below
(I hope @cristos71 doesn't mind me borrowing the image of his 2943/54)

Edited: Jul 15, 2020

 

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aprax

·Jul 15, 2020

Peemacgee

I do think the lugs have been cut down but I can’t see how you might form the stumpy, shoulderless, square lug on the watch at auction from the curved shouldered lug of the 2943

The more you shorten them, the stumpier they get, I suppose. Also, this region made me suspicious:

It still remains a mystery. AQ mention in the catalogue that the case was manufactured by Serva SA, so the appropriate hallmark must be on the inside of the case back. In that case, there should be a Helvetia hallmark on the inside of one of the 12 o’clock lugs, even if we give the bottom left lug the benefit of a doubt.

 

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Peemacgee

·Jul 15, 2020·Purrrr-veyor of luxury cat box loungers

Well, it’s certainly a mystery.
I hope whoever shells out good money on the watch knows they are buying something ‘unusual’

 

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cristos71

·Jul 15, 2020

Looks like some kind of Franken to me, or at the very best a rogue national production case from somewhere or other. The case is ugly and lacks the refinement normally seen in a gold Connie. From what I can see it has a flat side profile which is not what I'd expect, below a poor picture of an 18kt 2943/2954 case, the nice side bulge is clear to see.

As for the lugs, well I guess a lot is possible with the right tools/buffing wheels but I can hardly imagine it started out with these kind of curves. The same goes for the back of the lugs.

I don't like the dial for a 2943, lacking in 'calendar', I've never seen that before. ( The 'er ' in 'chronometer' is fine, a 2943/2954 can have both 're' or 'er' )

 

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Maskelyne

·Jul 15, 2020

I am just speculating now, look at the case and the bezel. The case with it´s lugs are more rosegold coloured and the bezel is yellow. I don´t think that the bezel is correct for this watch. The case seems to be a Seamaster case. As mentioned by @ConElPueblo the Seamaster bezels are flat. I also don´t think that the case with lugs are altered/modified.
Here is an improved picture...

Edited: Jul 15, 2020