Chronographs classified as Chronometres.

Vitezi · Dec 8, 2019

bgrisso
If they did time all the movements alone, and anything that passed in house accuracy specs became HPC, it would be great to see a HPC watch paired with a HPC certificate (never seen this) and also to see any example of HPC in the UG literature (sales, brochures, price lists, etc.

Yes, this would be the smoking gun. 😀 It is frustrating that we have not yet found any HPC marketing materials, neither advertising for the end-customer to entice them to buy an HPC watch, nor marketing materials for the retailer/jeweler to properly position and sell an HPC watch.

But UG's use of the specific term "Certificate of High Precision" gets us a bit closer to explaining a dial marked "H.P.C."

CafeRacer · Dec 8, 2019

M Moahunter
A recent thread on UG 28 Chronometer includes a post by Mazoue bringing to our attention another example of this model https://www.vesperco.com/soldwatches/universal-geneve-chronometer-28.
Interestingly there is a pic of the Chronometer cerification

Unfortunately there is no pic of the movement so we have no idea what might be inscribed on it.
Note the phrase "Certificate of High Precision" used in the description and the final pic.
Might HPC mean High Precision Certified?

Just a thought - these (few) chronometer certificates posted are all attached to US-market watches...
Was H.P.C. just a US-market version of the official Chronometer certification?
Some sort of import tax avoidance like the low jeweling and local casing?
A lot of the HPC dials I recall seeing seem to have come out of North America... but could also just be a coincidence.

Vitezi · Dec 8, 2019

Another thought - HPC watches were an attempt to develop a premium line of high precision watches, priced between ordinary watches and chronometers.

Given the absence of HPC marketing materials in the historical record, perhaps HPC watches were developed to test that idea in a specific region. Or, perhaps HPC watches were developed at the request of a large regional importer such as Henri Stern. If the concept had caught on, we might have seen some advertising and more watches.

However HPC watches seem to range from 1940s chronographs through to 1950s Polerouters, so if that theory has any merit it would seem that UG was testing the premium line idea for quite some time...

vacheroyale · Jan 15, 2020

M Moahunter
Interesting example here https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels...n-ve-chronometer-with-one-push-button-1930-40 if it's genuine.

even with the issue on the dial , for only $ 515 was worth it

CafeRacer · Mar 22, 2020

Just to add to this... Vintage advertisement for a polerouter "Chronometer Date".
Nothing on the dial in the advertisement though.
$1000 for a watch in the 60s. Holy moly!

Carlton-Browne · Mar 22, 2020

CafeRacer
Just to add to this... Vintage advertisement for a polerouter "Chronometer Date".
Nothing on the dial in the advertisement though.
$1000 for a watch in the 60s. Holy moly!

I wonder what the price would have been for a Rolex Day-Date at the time?

Modest_Proposal · Mar 22, 2020

Important to note that the $1000.00 includes a solid gold, intricate band.

Carlton-Browne · Mar 22, 2020

Modest_Proposal
Important to note that the $1000.00 includes a solid gold, intricate band.

Exactly.

bgrisso · Mar 22, 2020

The internet says that's equivalent to about $8200 in todays dollars 😲

bgrisso · Mar 22, 2020

CafeRacer
Just to add to this... Vintage advertisement for a polerouter "Chronometer Date".
Nothing on the dial in the advertisement though.
$1000 for a watch in the 60s. Holy moly!

Interesting that this sales copy treats the brand name as "Universal", not "Universal Geneve". Does anyone know if that is how the company generally marketed itself?

Mark020 · Mar 22, 2020

Carlton-Browne
I wonder what the price would have been for a Rolex Day-Date at the time?

Dutch price list from 1969. USDNLG was about 3.6 so slightly more than USD 1k (with gold bracelet)

Woops · Mar 23, 2020

bgrisso
Interesting that this sales copy treats the brand name as "Universal", not "Universal Geneve". Does anyone know if that is how the company generally marketed itself?

I have seen other promotional material in English where "Geneve" was dropped and it seems to be a US thing in general. Some snappy Mad Men copy for the American audience, perhaps?

Let me dig out some more supporting evidence for this wild claim from my stash. To be continued.....

bgrisso · Oct 16, 2020

What do we have here?

https://www.chrono24.com/universalgenve/universal-geneve-aero-compax-untouched-case--id16888746.htm

Mazoue · Oct 16, 2020

bgrisso
What do we have here?

https://www.chrono24.com/universalgenve/universal-geneve-aero-compax-untouched-case--id16888746.htm

To my knowledge, we've not yet seen a 'chronometre' marked chronograph that we agreed was correct. I also don't think we've seen any chronographs with 'chronometre' dials in any advertising; we've seen time only 'chronometres' and chronographs with 'HPC' dials.

There does not appear to be any markings on the movement that would mark this Cal 283 as being anything out of the ordinary. There is a number marked on the movement but they all have that as far as I can tell.

I'll stick my neck out and say that the 'chronometre' text is more likely to be a later addition than it is to be original.

bgrisso · Oct 16, 2020

I've had a few Aero that were cal 281, not 283, and they both said unadjusted, so I thought the lack of unadjusted might mean something on the above example. However I'm seeing other examples of the reference above for sale (22285) which also do not have unadjusted, so I guess it doesn't mean anything. Here's another example of a ref 22285 dial and mvmt.

I don't have any explanation for the above example. Text could have been added, or not, the whole thing remains a bit of a mystery IMHO.

CafeRacer · Nov 8, 2020

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264927598593

An H.P.C. marked 291 Calendar.
With a numbered movement.

Mazoue · Nov 8, 2020

CafeRacer
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264927598593

An H.P.C. marked 291 Calendar.
With a numbered movement.

Interesting but I think quite a high proportion of these movements were numbered (some randomly selected examples linked below).

I don't claim to have any chronograph expertise so I'm afraid I can't offer an explanation as to why.

https://watches83.com/en/universal-...g-watch-cal-291-complication-collectors-.html
https://www.catawiki.com/l/17607533...eel-mm-35-moonphase-caliber-291-men-1950-1959
https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/43z1xp02/1940-s-universal-geneve-calendar-moonphase-21312-6936

CafeRacer · Nov 8, 2020

Mazoue
Interesting but I think quite a high proportion of these movements were numbered (some randomly selected examples linked below).
I don't claim to have any chronograph expertise so I'm afraid I can't offer an explanation as to why.

It doesnt seem to be in line with UG chronometre number either (those are very high numbers...)

Kay995 · Nov 15, 2020

CafeRacer
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264927598593

An H.P.C. marked 291 Calendar.
With a numbered movement.

Interesting, I’m Glad to have found this thread. I ended up being the highest bidder on this watch it’s unfortunate about the case back not being original but still can’t wait to see it in person.

bgrisso · Nov 16, 2020

Mazoue
Interesting but I think quite a high proportion of these movements were numbered (some randomly selected examples linked below).

I don't claim to have any chronograph expertise so I'm afraid I can't offer an explanation as to why.

https://watches83.com/en/universal-...g-watch-cal-291-complication-collectors-.html
https://www.catawiki.com/l/17607533...eel-mm-35-moonphase-caliber-291-men-1950-1959
https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/43z1xp02/1940-s-universal-geneve-calendar-moonphase-21312-6936

agreed, all the cal 291 that I've had (a bunch) were numbered, so in this example above, I don't think it tells us anything, and the mystery continues......

Chronographs classified as Chronometres.

Vitezi

CafeRacer

Vitezi

vacheroyale

CafeRacer

Carlton-Browne

Modest_Proposal

Carlton-Browne

bgrisso

bgrisso

Mark020

Woops

bgrisso

Mazoue

bgrisso

CafeRacer

Mazoue

CafeRacer

Kay995

bgrisso

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