Chrono24 seller with no scruples!!

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that should be ; The Netherlands , and it is close enough to send him or the copyright owners an email and make good use of your anger. Go give em Hell !!

that should be ; The Netherlands , and it is close enough to send him or the copyright owners an email and make good use of your anger. Go give em Hell !!
Ermm... Amsterdam is in Holland, but I got your point...馃槈
And message sent!

9 hours x 2 with a car is to much right now...馃榿
 
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Well, to be exact : in the province of North Holland as there is also a South Holland 馃榾
 
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Well, to be exact : in the province of North Holland as there is also a South Holland 馃榾

Well of course!
My Bad...馃槈

Is there also a South part of the province of North Holland??馃榿
 
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Dear Hansaboy and dear OF readers. Many thanks for all of your kind words.馃槈

In all honesty these kind of messages and some of these insulting responses from certain OF members are a quite interesting since you learn from it but you also tend to respond emotional. Quite logical if you ask me with this tone of voice. Please let me explain why.

Since I started my watch business I tend to write as much information as possible about all the watches that I post on my website and on c24. I have a full library here with among them many books, magazines and catalogues. And yes within the descriptions I use information from the wide web but also from this library. The information that I provide is to inform my customers. The reason to describe the watches that I sell with as much information as possible is with I belief the right intentions. Most of the times I tend to give credits to all but sometimes you forget and on c24 you are not even allowed to give a weblink.

So let me emphasize: lessons learned here I should be more careful and give all credits to those who have done the research. In the nearby future I will amend the posts and add footnotes where they are not visible. But please this isn't a PHD thesis, these are watches and they should be fun not salty.

Second to tell you the truth the tone of voice of forums with post and comments like these which are quite condemning, judgmental and insulting without knowing a real human person and without asking upfront that really puts me off from certain brands. Do I condemn you that you look at watches during your 9-5 job? Would be really stupid from my behalf haha. Would you also communicate in this way if we would meet face to face? These rants without the right of rebuttal by people who resemble a bit like the keyboard warriors on Facebook pages of media outlets, are quite the thing why internet has become a harsh place. For this reason I know that many dealers who are really passionate watch enthusiasts have turned their backs from forums. I experienced a similar thing on a Dutch forum, where I posted an interesting post the first year that I started trading watches about my launch and why I started trading watches. People were fast as lightning to ban the post if it was a witch hunt. Apparently they were convinced of my bad commercial intentions. I should have known better and have asked upfront for permission to post since the message was contrary to the forum rules. They also could have contacted me "hey Wouter you are new here sorry this isn't really allowed perhaps you can do it like this or that or what so ever". But as a result I have seldom posted any more things on that forum. Cause I really don't like the cut throat attitude of certain forum members. Fortunately in the real world at redbar events, watch fairs/auctions and speedytuesday events etc you can still meet people who are really nice and know how to communicate like proper grown-ups.

Third please let me make one thing clear. Yes I am a professional and yes I do have a family which I take care off. And yes of course the sole reason that I trade watches and make money out of it is that i I do this to make easy money. Belief me it ain't that easy. It can be really a pain in the ass and even quite dangerous. I buy and sell many pieces with my own money and also on behalf of certain collectors who are happy with the watches that I sell. The reason that I trade watches is that I like watches as long as I remember and I want to tell the stories about watches by describing them and trying my best to make the best pictures I can. This is all a one man show. So if you look at my watches they are not the run of the mill new and pre-owned piece but interesting collector pieces. I stand for the quality and service that I provide. If there is something with a watch people have the right to send them back and I will solve it or return their money. This is kind of different when you buy watches from consumers or random places....I only want happy customers since I want to treat my customers like how I would like to be treated myself.

But many thanks for the constructive feedback underneath and I will learn from it. If you have anymore constructive gentle feedback or just want to say that I just suck please let me know, cause seriously I am willing to learn. But please be clear on the message and kind on the communication. That would make this and especially our watch world a better place in my honest opinion.
 
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Heres my mail to Mr. Wijk:


Dear Mr. Wounter van Wijk, I dont know if you have looked at my post regarding the way you describe your watches that you have for sale on both Chrono24 and your own website?
Here is a screenprint with the post (i don't know how to share posts...), so you could have look at it.



I find the way you describe the watches that you have for sale a bit unethical,
with this I mean that its not fair of you to copy other peoples descriptions and used them for your
own sales!
These kind people have done this (and continue to do it) with a lot of hard work and effort, and they do their
best to share with other watch enthusiasts. And at no cost!

Please do take your time to read my post (and others that have replied)?
And I would appreciate if you could reply to me?

Best Regards

Hans
 
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Dear Hansaboy and dear OF readers. Many thanks for all of your kind words.馃槈

In all honesty these kind of messages and some of these insulting responses from certain OF members are a quite interesting since you learn from it but you also tend to respond emotional. Quite logical if you ask me with this tone of voice. Please let me explain why.

Since I started my watch business I tend to write as much information as possible about all the watches that I post on my website and on c24. I have a full library here with among them many books, magazines and catalogues. And yes within the descriptions I use information from the wide web but also from this library. The information that I provide is to inform my customers. The reason to describe the watches that I sell with as much information as possible is with I belief the right intentions. Most of the times I tend to give credits to all but sometimes you forget and on c24 you are not even allowed to give a weblink.

So let me emphasize: lessons learned here I should be more careful and give all credits to those who have done the research. In the nearby future I will amend the posts and add footnotes where they are not visible. But please this isn't a PHD thesis, these are watches and they should be fun not salty.

Second to tell you the truth the tone of voice of forums with post and comments like these which are quite condemning, judgmental and insulting without knowing a real human person and without asking upfront that really puts me off from certain brands. Do I condemn you that you look at watches during your 9-5 job? Would be really stupid from my behalf haha. Would you also communicate in this way if we would meet face to face? These rants without the right of rebuttal by people who resemble a bit like the keyboard warriors on Facebook pages of media outlets, are quite the thing why internet has become a harsh place. For this reason I know that many dealers who are really passionate watch enthusiasts have turned their backs from forums. I experienced a similar thing on a Dutch forum, where I posted an interesting post the first year that I started trading watches about my launch and why I started trading watches. People were fast as lightning to ban the post if it was a witch hunt. Apparently they were convinced of my bad commercial intentions. I should have known better and have asked upfront for permission to post since the message was contrary to the forum rules. They also could have contacted me "hey Wouter you are new here sorry this isn't really allowed perhaps you can do it like this or that or what so ever". But as a result I have seldom posted any more things on that forum. Cause I really don't like the cut throat attitude of certain forum members. Fortunately in the real world at redbar events, watch fairs/auctions and speedytuesday events etc you can still meet people who are really nice and know how to communicate like proper grown-ups.

Third please let me make one thing clear. Yes I am a professional and yes I do have a family which I take care off. And yes of course the sole reason that I trade watches and make money out of it is that i I do this to make easy money. Belief me it ain't that easy. It can be really a pain in the ass and even quite dangerous. I buy and sell many pieces with my own money and also on behalf of certain collectors who are happy with the watches that I sell. The reason that I trade watches is that I like watches as long as I remember and I want to tell the stories about watches by describing them and trying my best to make the best pictures I can. This is all a one man show. So if you look at my watches they are not the run of the mill new and pre-owned piece but interesting collector pieces. I stand for the quality and service that I provide. If there is something with a watch people have the right to send them back and I will solve it or return their money. This is kind of different when you buy watches from consumers or random places....I only want happy customers since I want to treat my customers like how I would like to be treated myself.

But many thanks for the constructive feedback underneath and I will learn from it. If you have anymore constructive gentle feedback or just want to say that I just suck please let me know, cause seriously I am willing to learn. But please be clear on the message and kind on the communication. That would make this and especially our watch world a better place in my honest opinion.

Dear Wouter, I understand your feelings, but:
1- I dont work 9-5
2 - I cant really find anthing in the posts that should make you feel uncomfortable
3- you have understood the message

So let me emphasize: lessons learned here I should be more careful and give all credits to those who have done the research. In the nearby future I will amend the posts and add footnotes where they are not visible.


4- Looking forward to your adjusted sales
5 - Cheers and take care

Hansaboy
 
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So let me emphasize: lessons learned here I should be more careful and give all credits to those who have done the research. In the nearby future I will amend the posts and add footnotes where they are not visible.

Giving credit is a great policy to apply AFTER you reach out to the creator and get permission to use their work.
 
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I have also sometimes "borrowed" some text from somebody else when selling a watch without any footnotes. I think I'm going to hell for this. Luckily I did a lot of good things in my life.
 
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Initially mentioned, I personally found the title of this thread somewhat inappropriate.

Of course, third party麓s copyrights need to be observed in internet also. That means that if somebody desires to use texts and/or photos of others, then the proper way to proceed is to ask the copyright owner for permission first, and if this is granted, only then to use such text or photos. I personally ask each vendor of my watches for permission to use the photos within the transaction as a routine. And ask, if permitted, whether a reference is desired or not. I have never encountered that the permission is rejected. Only in one case the copyright owner requested that I post his explicite permission together with his photos.

If a permission is rejected (still to come), or if I have the watch since long and do not find it easy to reach out to the copyright owner ex post, I simply make my own photos.

I might note that some here apparently do not observe thrird parties copyrights as a routine. For example if an internet offer is discussed and a photo of the offered item is posted without permission, this is a violation of copyrights. Instead of posting a photo directly, a link to the offer would be appropriate. I would, however, not consider such person violating third party麓s copyright right out as "unscrupulous", but rather as careless.

But in case of a professional seller I would expect more care, and in particular think that descriptions of offered items should not be simply used via c&p. Using elaborated texts of others without permission does not indicate particular respect, neither for the copyright owner, nor the prospective customer. Of course one needs to spend a few minutes for creating own texts ....

In this particular case I would have FIRST contacted Mr. Wijk and asked whether he had obtained the right to use the text in question. Only upon non-respondence, or after obtaining a rude answer and observing no change of practice, I would have made the issue public, using neutral and factual wording.
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I have also sometimes "borrowed" some text from somebody else when selling a watch without any footnotes. I think I'm going to hell for this. Luckily I did a lot of good things in my life.

Well, you might have a lot more fun in hell 馃槈

But, that is no "borrowing", but can (depends on the nature of the text, you would need to ask a lawyer) constitute a copyright violation, which gives rise to criminal and civil charges.
 
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Well, you might have a lot more fun in hell 馃槈

But, that is no "borrowing", but can (depends on the nature of the text, you would need to ask a lawyer) constitute a copyright violation, which gives rise to criminal and civil charges.
I am a lawyer!
 
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I am a lawyer!

So you have experience in writing your own briefs ... 馃槤

And: You then are doomed to hell anyway . See you later 馃榿.
 
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I have also sometimes "borrowed" some text from somebody else...
I remember one of my high school teachers taking an issue with this sort of thing 馃榿
 
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I might note that some here apparently do not observe thrird parties copyrights as a routine. For example if an internet offer is discussed and a photo of the offered item is posted without permission, this is a violation of copyrights. Instead of posting a photo directly, a link to the offer would be appropriate.

If the watch is being discussed - value, authenticity, etc. - as is often the case here, this would fall under "fair use"...so not a copyright violation at all.

This is very different from using someone else's material to generate a profit.
 
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I remember one of my high school teachers taking an issue with this sort of thing 馃榿
Hell, I got my high school diploma by borrowing a lot from outside sources!
 
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Hell, I got my high school diploma by borrowing a lot from outside sources!

I suspect that the Cliff's Notes company has saved many from the ignominy of using "the dog ate my homework" excuse
 
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Lot of people here posting between 9 and 5. No good guys!
 
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If the watch is being discussed - value, authenticity, etc. - as is often the case here, this would fall under "fair use"...so not a copyright violation at all.

This is very different from using someone else's material to generate a profit.

The borderline between "educational" and unfair use is very narrow and may even be vague. If a person is discussing a watch using a photo and arguing that the asking price is too high because of this or that, then this person might already be on the wrong side of the borderline.

Also, national law differs and here are not only US residents posting and discussing. Are you a lawyer, specialised in (international) copyright, that you know with so much confidence what is "not a copyright violation at all"? Or is your knowledge internet "swarm intelligence"? The same kind like often seen with respect to watch and clock repairing? 馃槈

Cheers, Bernhard
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