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Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

CBM1590
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Happened upon this Waltham with an ornate dial. Best I can tell, late 1890’s. I’m not used to the stem at the 3 O’clock position so I did a bit of digging. Seems this style was not intended for a hunter case. Is that right? It is fairly cheap ($100).
 
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Canuck
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CBM1590 CBM1590
Happened upon this Waltham with an ornate dial. Best I can tell, late 1890’s. I’m not used to the stem at the 3 O’clock position so I did a bit of digging. Seems this style was not intended for a hunter case. Is that right? It is fairly cheap ($100).

. In the era of the subject watch, movements went to retailers in brass tins with a bayonet fitting lid. The buyer in the retail store chose the movement, case, dial, hands, etc., and the retailer assembled the components into a finished watch. A customer could have indeed chosen an open faced case and a hunter style movement, I suppose.
 
Waltesefalcon
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DaveK DaveK
Did melamine degrade all on its own, like a Hyundai Pony did, ori is it a case of malamine + environment + care = condition? I guess I’m wondering if a Melamine dial looks good today, is I likely to stay that way?
I believe that the original melamine dials will continue to degrade regardless of the care. Whereas later dials, lile mine, hold up much better. It's all about the chemical make up of the dial.
 
Waltesefalcon
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CBM1590 CBM1590
Happened upon this Waltham with an ornate dial. Best I can tell, late 1890’s. I’m not used to the stem at the 3 O’clock position so I did a bit of digging. Seems this style was not intended for a hunter case. Is that right? It is fairly cheap ($100).
You have to remember that when this watch was sold the buyer would pick a movement, case, and sometimes even the dial and hands they wanted, then the watchmaker or jeweler would case the watch. So, an open faced case with a hunter configured movement wouldn't have been unheard of.

Edit: I just saw that Canuck beat me to the punch.
 
Bernhard J
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CBM1590 CBM1590
Happened upon this Waltham with an ornate dial. Best I can tell, late 1890’s. I’m not used to the stem at the 3 O’clock position so I did a bit of digging. Seems this style was not intended for a hunter case. Is that right? It is fairly cheap ($100).

I would be more concernded about the dial not sitting centered on the movement and in the case. See the seconds hand and the varying width of the outer decoration ring. Hopefully the dial is not glued to the movement ...
 
DaveK
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
I would be more concernded about the dial not sitting centered on the movement and in the case. See the seconds hand and the varying width of the outer decoration ring. Hopefully the dial is not glued to the movement ...

Looks like possible chipping around the seconds hand as well

IMG_0766.jpeg
 
CBM1590
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
I would be more concernded about the dial not sitting centered on the movement and in the case. See the seconds hand and the varying width of the outer decoration ring. Hopefully the dial is not glued to the movement ...
Thanks all. These antiquities are a minefield. That’s why I ask.
 
Canuck
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Waltesefalcon Waltesefalcon
I believe that the original melamine dials will continue to degrade regardless of the care. Whereas later dials, lile mine, hold up much better. It's all about the chemical make up of the dial.

Earlier in this thread, I posted a picture of my Hamilton 950B which came to me about 40 years ago. This one is from the early 1940s. It came with the melamine dial shown in the picture. This watch was produced at around the time that Hamilton switched from vitreous enamel dials, to melamine dials. So this might be an early melamine dial. Some melamine dials cracked and peeled, while some deteriorated not at all (like mine). Or there were degrees of deterioration it appears. Later melamine resin was improved to reduce or eliminate this problem. Question: My early melamine dial is pristine, While dials such as the one on @TexOmega ’s watch were not so fortunate. Why? Ultraviolet light? Environment? Faulty production? Anybody’s guess!

My original 950B melamine dial.

IMG_2532.jpeg



Later melamine dials such as the one on this ‘50s vintage Waltham Vanguard (which I no longer have) appear to have stood the test of time rather better. This watch was owned by two successive owners, and neither of them ever used it! I bought it about 2005, and I likewise never used it! Melamine dial is pristine.

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I also have. Hamilton 992B from the early 1960s which also has a pristine melamine dial.

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Canuck
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The Waltham Vanguard I posted (above) came to me in a felt lined stainless steel case as shown. The protective case was fitted by the original owner of the Waltham, and the watch reposed in the protective case for about 40 years, while being owned by the first two owners. I bought the watch and removed the protective case.

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DaveK
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Canuck Canuck
The Waltham Vanguard I posted (above) came to me in a felt lined stainless steel case as shown. The protective case was fitted by the original owner of the Waltham, and the watch reposed in the protective case for about 40 years, while being owned by the first two owners. I bought the watch and removed the protective case.

P8229006.jpeg P8229008.jpeg

Ohh that’s nice! Is that outer case beat up from use, or did the original owner just take really good care of everything?
 
Canuck
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DaveK DaveK
Ohh that’s nice! Is that outer case beat up from use, or did the original owner just take really good care of everything?

The watch was bought in either Coaldale or Coleman, Alberta in the 1950s. (Forget which.) He bought the protective case with the watch, and put the watch into the case, and stuck it in a drawer. Never used it! In 1971, his advanced age meant he was divesting himself of some stuff, including the watch. He phoned the guy I bought it from and asked if he wanted it. He did! He left it in the case, took it home, and stuck it in a drawer where it reposed until I bought it about 25 years ago. I bought it, brought it home, removed the case, and put the watch into a protective watch storage case where it reposed until I sold the watch in 2022. I might have used the watch a dozen times while I owned it. I sold it to a guy who is the president of a telegraphy club which regularly operates at our local historic park (Heritage Park). At last it is being used in a role for which it was intended.

edited both Coleman and Coaldale are in Alberta.🤨
Edited:
 
Waltesefalcon
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My 950B I posted was made in 53, so perhaps the recipe was a bit better than that of Tex's. Perhaps it was just better cared for. Who knows, it's one of those mysteries that makes this hobby interesting.
 
Canuck
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Waltesefalcon Waltesefalcon
My 950B I posted was made in 53, so perhaps the recipe was a bit better than that of Tex's. Perhaps it was just better cared for. Who knows, it's one of those mysteries that makes this hobby interesting.

My 950B was produced circa 1942-43, or at around the time that Hamilton began replacing vitreous enamel dials with melamine dials. Thereby, my Hamilton melamine dial might be considered a fairly early one. It is perfect! It occurs to me that external factors were the cause of melamine dials flaking, cracking, and peeling. I showed 3 melamine dials in a prior post. One from the mid 1940s, one from the mid 1950s, and one from the mid 1960s. All of them are pristine. All of them on watches that had little use. If there is an answer to the deterioration of melamine dials, I don’t know what it might be!
 
TexOmega
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Canuck Canuck
Melamine tended to deteriorate like the dial on the subject watch. My understanding is that Hamilton became aware of the problem, and whether it was Hamilton or the source for melamine resin, I don’t know. But it seems improvements were made on later melamine dials. My 950B came to me with a melamine dial which has not suffered the deterioration of the dial on the subject 950B. My 950B now has a pristine double sunk vitreous enamel dial. Unfortunately NOT a 24-hour dial. Bar over crown case.

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S10311 appears to be from 1951 if the PW database is correct.
 
Canuck
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TexOmega TexOmega
S10311 appears to be from 1951 if the PW database is correct.

@TexOmega is correct on the year S10311 being from 1951. I checked the Shugart table, and it agrees. I left out a digit from the S#, and the earlier date was the result. The vitreous enamel dial that is now on my 950B is quite a bit earlier than the watch.
 
TexOmega
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Canuck Canuck
@TexOmega is correct on the year S10311 being from 1951. I checked the Shugart table, and it agrees. I left out a digit from the S#, and the earlier date was the result. The vitreous enamel dial that is now on my 950B is quite a bit earlier than the watch.


Great looking watch, my serial is not too far off from yours, roughly 300 units(S10016)
 
TexOmega
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production records for small lots showed 24 operations vs 108 so would cost 1/2 as much

"AND ONLY SUPERFICIAL TESTING was required to show that Melamine dials were LESS fragile than the vitreous originals "
😲

I would suggest a bit more rigorous testing would have shown just the opposite, unless the cost-cutting decision came first.😁.......those lucrative Govt contracts had run OUT 📖
 
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