Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

Bernhard J · Jul 4, 2024

Canuck
My guess is the case is 18-karat gold? The inevitable question……..is the movement maker identified? Face up, I’d call it a chronograph. But the complicated looking movement might indicate there is more to it than that. The watch appears to be pin-set, but if it is a chronograph, there is no stop-start and re-set button in evidence. You must have anticipated questions. Such watches are not a focus of mine, but I think I’d have jumped on that one! Outstanding!

Yes, 18K case, including the cuvette.

No, it is completely useless as a chronograph. First, because it can show seconds only, and not fractions of seconds. Second, because there is no reset function. And yes, the slider at the circumference of the case is for stopping and starting the seconds hand. Other than the English "centre seconds chronograph" (which neither was a chronograph) the movement continues running if the seconds hand is stopped.

Remember that chronographs, like we know them today (start/stop/reset, movement of course continuing to run), had been invented earlier by Nicole. This watch presumably was made 1870 - 1880, the invention of the chronograph goes back to the 1840s.

I assume that it was an attractive novelty and very expensive due to the complicated movement, which also attracted "afficionados" in that era. Interesting is, that the same result (centre seconds hand jumping in one seconds steps) had been achieved earlier with the "chinese" duplex, and with comparatively very simple means (resulting in low precision and low reliability)

And no, the complexity of the movement does nothing more than providing for the independent dead beat seconds hand. One going train as usual, and the other train for nothing else than this seconds hands motion.

And today observers - taking a glance only - will suppose that the watch has a cheap Asian quartz movement. So, nothing to "show-off". Presumably that is the reason why nobody wants it today.

My research has not yet led to a manufacturer of the movement. But it is sure that it was one of the few premium Swiss firms of the time. What I have found is this

https://german242.com/en/product/2-0173-james-nardin-seconde-morte-jumping-seconds-1870s/

Surely the same manufacturer of the movement, as is it nearly identical, but the signature presumably does not tell the maker of the movement.

Cheers, Bernhard

TexOmega · Jul 4, 2024

Canuck · Jul 4, 2024

What might cause even the greenest individual to draw the conclusion that this handsome watch could be quartz? Perhaps the reason it was passed over by other viewers might have been that even for scrap value (@Bernhard J ’s words), the gold value of this outstanding case would have been considerable! Enough to discourage everyone except a connoisseur such as @Bernhard J ! Outstanding!

Bernhard J · Jul 4, 2024

Well there indeed exist quartz pocket watches in 18K cases .... 😁

https://www.1stdibs.com/de/schmuck/uhren/taschenuhren/international-watch-company-taschenuhr-mit-goldenem-jagdgehäuse/id-j_10383322/

And with centre seconds in 14K ...

https://juwelier-eberle.de/products/provita-taschenuhr-585-gold-14-kt-quarz-wert-1500

hen · Jul 4, 2024

TexOmega
Take the serial number to the Pocket Watch Database and input it to reveal all

Possibly a size 10 men's but appears to be a women's size

Back should have a tiny lip to slide a knife edge inside to pop open

Thanks for your answer. I am a bit careful of giving out my credit card information on the net and the pocket watch database needed that for some reason. The back was easy to open, thank you 👎 See pictures below.

Canuck
It is a woman’s watch. They were generally fitted with a bale on the bow through which a long (~40”) chain was fitted. Women would wear a chatelaine (type of brooch) on a dress front or jacket from which the watch might be hung. The case serial number is not the best reference for gauging age. The s# on the mechanism is what we’d need. But I’ll guess it’s age to be circa 1905. Value? Probably more valuable to the owner than to anyone else. But things being how they are, under $100.00. My guess is it is about a 6-size movement (1 3/8” diameter), so the case would bring it to about 38 to 40 mm diameter. Give us the s# from the mechanism to eliminate guesswork.

Thanks for answering. The serial number on the movement is 4232914. Very interesting how this watch was worn by women, maybe the owners daughter will wear it, that would be cool. I always imagined pocket watch to be worn by old men in top hats, not women. If it is from 1905 it is not much worn and only two watch maker markings. You are right about the size, I dont have my calipers here, but it is slightly smaller than my Seamaster. I tryed to explain the value of a watch to the owners and the $100 price made them keep it. Other markings on the rim around the movement: "Pat'd Dec 7 86"and "1372"

Thanks to everyone for contributing to my learning.

Canuck · Jul 4, 2024

hen
Thanks for your answer. I am a bit careful of giving out my credit card information on the net and the pocket watch database needed that for some reason. The back was easy to open, thank you 👎 See pictures below.

Thanks for answering. The serial number on the movement is 4232914. Very interesting how this watch was worn by women, maybe the owners daughter will wear it, that would be cool. I always imagined pocket watch to be worn by old men in top hats, not women. If it is from 1905 it is not much worn and only two watch maker markings. You are right about the size, I dont have my calipers here, but it is slightly smaller than my Seamaster. I tryed to explain the value of a watch to the owners and the $100 price made them keep it. Other markings on the rim around the movement: "Pat'd Dec 7 86"and "1372"

Thanks to everyone for contributing to my learning.

Here is the pocketwatchdatabase.com listing for the Waltham. I guessed circa 1905, but it is about 15 years older than that. I guessed most likely a 6 size (1 3/8” diameter). I was right. The patent date refers to the case which was not made by Waltham. The mechanism is an 1873 model, but it was made circa 1890. There would be nothing to stop a 19th century man from wearing this watch. But it was designed and meant for a lady to use. You don’t tell us about any marks that are stamped into the case back (not the scribbled repair marks). But I suggested the case is gold filled (gold veneer over brass). Clearly, the owner is of the opinion that sentimental value reflects in what the value might be. But a 7- jewel woman’s watch in a gold filled case which is as ordinary as this one is not very collectable.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/4232914

ghce · Jul 4, 2024

Well my cheap Waltham got it ocular surgery this morning.
Now we need a Heart Lung transplant next as this patient doesn't have medicare and he is in quite poor non running health ( more than salvageable but..... ) a suitable donor has been identified.

Before.

After

The Cardiograms..

The candidates

The one that drew the short straw.

While the Donor candidate face is absolutely pristine and as it left the factory it's a bit boring ( trust me the dial is 100% mint condition even if the photo tells you otherwise) so it will end up with the far more attractive though only 90% dial that the case and original movement had with it red minute markers and Waltham badging.

Operation will commence in 30 minutes time once my Tea anaesthetic has been applied to me.

Canuck · Jul 4, 2024

Bernhard J
Well there indeed exist quartz pocket watches in 18K cases .... 😁

https://www.1stdibs.com/de/schmuck/uhren/taschenuhren/international-watch-company-taschenuhr-mit-goldenem-jagdgehäuse/id-j_10383322/

And with centre seconds in 14K ...

https://juwelier-eberle.de/products/provita-taschenuhr-585-gold-14-kt-quarz-wert-1500

Your point about there indeed being 18-karat gold watches with quartz movements I understand. But I fail to see how anybody could confuse one of these latter date quartz watches in 18-karat cases for the work of art you featured in your post!

TexOmega · Jul 4, 2024

hen
Thanks for your answer. I am a bit careful of giving out my credit card information on the net and the pocket watch database needed that for some reason. The back was easy to open, thank you 👎 See pictures below.

Thanks for answering. The serial number on the movement is 4232914. Very interesting how this watch was worn by women, maybe the owners daughter will wear it, that would be cool. I always imagined pocket watch to be worn by old men in top hats, not women. If it is from 1905 it is not much worn and only two watch maker markings. You are right about the size, I dont have my calipers here, but it is slightly smaller than my Seamaster. I tryed to explain the value of a watch to the owners and the $100 price made them keep it. Other markings on the rim around the movement: "Pat'd Dec 7 86"and "1372"

Thanks to everyone for contributing to my learning.

Shouldn't need a CC unless things have changed there the last week or two.

And looking at the chain, it would have been worn with a vest and more likely a gentleman wore the watch.
But, who knows....women can wear vest's, too!! However, with that compass....I would vote a man wore the watch.

However.......with Wimmin inherently bad at directions and all ::rimshot::

, it could have been worn by a women.

I'll stop diggin', now....😁

Canuck · Jul 4, 2024

The chain may or may not be original to the watch. So who knows. The chain is an Albert style. The bar would go through a button hole on a vest, likely worn by a male. The compass would hang down below the bar. This style of chain was often enhanced by a signet, often done in heliotrope (bloodstone), sardonyx (red onyx), black onyx, lagenstein (blue onyx), goldstone, a gold coin (I wear a half sovereign from circa 1895 on my Waldemar chain), or a medal with a sign of the zodiac. Or many other talismans the owner may have chosen from. The chain was purposed for a man, and it was placed on a lady’s watch, but a man may have worn the watch I suppose.

hen · Jul 5, 2024

Canuck
Here is the pocketwatchdatabase.com listing for the Waltham. I guessed circa 1905, but it is about 15 years older than that. I guessed most likely a 6 size (1 3/8” diameter). I was right. The patent date refers to the case which was not made by Waltham. The mechanism is an 1873 model, but it was made circa 1890. There would be nothing to stop a 19th century man from wearing this watch. But it was designed and meant for a lady to use. You don’t tell us about any marks that are stamped into the case back (not the scribbled repair marks). But I suggested the case is gold filled (gold veneer over brass). Clearly, the owner is of the opinion that sentimental value reflects in what the value might be. But a 7- jewel woman’s watch in a gold filled case which is as ordinary as this one is not very collectable.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/4232914

Thank you so much for your knowledge and time, I really appreciate both.
Regarding the case backs, everything that is stamped into the case backs are shown in the pictures. It surprised me that it was so little, compared with the last one I posted.

I think the age and some entusiastic ramblings on my part will make the owners realise that it needs and deserves a trip to a watch maker and some day it will be worn by the owners daughter. Who is also my wife but that has nothing to do with anything. Ahhmm no self interest here on my part, no sir.
Thanks again for your help.

Alpha · Jul 6, 2024

Well here is the Elgin on desk duty this evening 😀

ghce · Jul 8, 2024

Oh well not all goes to plan, got my Waltham Royal movement fitted to the new host case but couldn't change out the dial as the dial feet were broken off so stuck with the original unsigned Royal dial that it left the factory with. I will have to track down another one as I liked the hoped for replacement dial more.
Looks like my purchase of the 15 jewel movement and case were a bit of a pup with someone tinkering with the PW movement and damage to the internal lip of the case for the movement mounting screw not to mention the missing dial feet.
So it looks like I have more work to do ie different dial but any way it's a runner for now.

Canuck · Jul 8, 2024

The Waltham Royal model was possibly named after Royal Robbins who signed on with Waltham when the firm was on the ropes. Robbins took the company from destitute to the power house it became. What surprises me is the Royal marked models I recall seeing were mid-grade models, not the crème de la crème of the Waltham models like the Vanguard or Premier Maximus! The subject watch looked much better with the servicing.

ghce · Jul 8, 2024

Canuck
The Waltham Royal model was possibly named after Royal Robbins who signed on with Waltham when the firm was on the ropes. Robbins took the company from destitute to the power house it became. What surprises me is the Royal marked models I recall seeing were mid-grade models, not the crème de la crème of the Waltham models like the Vanguard or Premier Maximus! The subject watch looked much better with the servicing.

Wouldn't mind a Maximus if I could find one locally but even so the Royal is not be sneezed at being a step above the basic with being adjusted and a jeweled centre wheel.
This is now my 2nd Royal the first one being a presentation Hunter watch to a retiring Railway Engineer. These however would not be an acceptable watch on US or Canadian Railways, not really the accuracy demanded for and got on US Railroad watches but nice nonetheless.

TexOmega · Jul 9, 2024

Custom @Duracuir1 leatherwork

Hamilton 950B circa 1950 enclosed by a Hamilton model “A” no shoulders( 1948-56) gf case.
melamine dial…..cost cutting without thorough testing

CBM1590 · Jul 9, 2024

TexOmega
Custom @Duracuir1 leatherwork

Hamilton 950B circa 1950 enclosed by a Hamilton model “A” no shoulders( 1948-56) gf case.
melamine dial…..cost cutting without thorough testing

Very nice!

Canuck · Jul 9, 2024

Melamine tended to deteriorate like the dial on the subject watch. My understanding is that Hamilton became aware of the problem, and whether it was Hamilton or the source for melamine resin, I don’t know. But it seems improvements were made on later melamine dials. My 950B came to me with a melamine dial which has not suffered the deterioration of the dial on the subject 950B. My 950B now has a pristine double sunk vitreous enamel dial. Unfortunately NOT a 24-hour dial. Bar over crown case.

DaveK · Jul 9, 2024

TexOmega
Custom @Duracuir1 leatherwork

Hamilton 950B circa 1950 enclosed by a Hamilton model “A” no shoulders( 1948-56) gf case.
melamine dial…..cost cutting without thorough testing

That's a really nice case design 😎

Waltesefalcon · Jul 9, 2024

My 950B also has a melamine dial in pretty good shape. If you look, you can see a small crack on each side of the 1. I've also included a photo with my boots for some continuity with Tex's post.