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Canuck
·
I commented mostly because these hands are not the typical spade style, they really dress up these watches, they are original, and I’m a bit of a pedant. 😀
Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs
I commented mostly because these hands are not the typical spade style, they really dress up these watches, they are original, and I’m a bit of a pedant. 😀
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Fritz
·Amazing... even with totally modern equipment I'm a shite photographer.
I might just as well dig out my old 35mm.
I might just as well dig out my old 35mm.
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Canuck
·The skinny on @Fritz ’s stunning Elgin Father Time. Total production just over 10,000. How the world of watches has changed. Today, a total production of 20,000 of any model of watch would be touted as a “limited edition”. I have a strong suspicion that this splendid artifact has diamond endstones on the balance staff pivots.
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/14409625
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/14409625
Edited:
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Fritz
·The skinny on @Fritz ’s stunning Elgin Father Time. Total production just over 10,000. How the world of watches has changed. Today, a total production of 20,000 of any model of watch would be touted as a “limited edition”. I have a strong suspicion that this splendid artifact has diamond endstones on the balance staff pivots.
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/14409625
diamond endstones? indeed it does.
until just a few weeks ago an 18s 3/4 plate Elgin railroad watch was on my very short list of things to acquire to complete the collection and it was reasonably priced to boot!
the detail I find amusing is the threaded curved rod that the regulator uses, I'd love to know how they made that.
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Canuck
·Diamond endstones, I thought so! I have a 19-jewel version of that movement, a B W Raymond. Mine is from the first run of that particular grade. Bought in Spokane (likely) in 1903.
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Fritz
·Diamond endstones, I thought so! I have a 19-jewel version of that movement, a B W Raymond. Mine is from the first run of that particular grade. Bought in Spokane (likely) in 1903.
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Canuck
·How did you narrow it down to Spokane? The only thing I know about mine is that it came from the states.
Mine is a family watch. It came from my wife’s great grandfather. He was a sergeant in the Union Army. He then went on to become a sheriff in Paducah County, in Kentucky. Then he and his wife and small children moved to farm in Kansas. After a time there, his wife became afraid of tornados and what might happen to the children. They moved to a farm at Spangle, Washington, south of Spokane. He founded a hardware business in Spangle early in the 20th century. Spangle was a small town in 1901, but between the farm and the hardware business, he prospered. I can really only assume the watch was bought in the nearest city, Spokane, because it is unlikely anyone in Spangle would have sold such an expensive item.
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Fritz
·Mine is a family watch. It came from my wife’s great grandfather. He was a sergeant in the Union Army. He then went on to become a sheriff in Paducah County, in Kentucky. Then he and his wife and small children moved to farm in Kansas. After a time there, his wife became afraid of tornados and what might happen to the children. They moved to a farm at Spangle, Washington, south of Spokane. He founded a hardware business in Spangle early in the 20th century. Spangle was a small town in 1901, but between the farm and the hardware business, he prospered. I can really only assume the watch was bought in the nearest city, Spokane, because it is unlikely anyone in Spangle would have sold such an expensive item.
and with family history attached to boot, that must have a place of honour in the collection.
i love those fancy dials, I picked up a mint one a year or so back and fitted it to a plain 15j Elgin movement I fitted into a nice coin silver case, they sure do make for a nice piece! any idea how much they would ad to the price, information on such dials is a bit thin on the ground.
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Canuck
·WOW! Thats a really NICE watch.
and with family history attached to boot, that must have a place of honour in the collection.
i love those fancy dials, I picked up a mint one a year or so back and fitted it to a plain 15j Elgin movement I fitted into a nice coin silver case, they sure do make for a nice piece! any idea how much they would ad to the price, information on such dials is a bit thin on the ground.
The B W Raymond was a railroad grade watch. The one I referred to was railroad grade, but NOT railroad approved. The dial would hinder railroad approval. To a collector of railroad grade pocket watches, the dial might dissuade him from buying it, or at least, it is unlikely to add any value. Some people buy a particular watch because it runs, and is pretty. To this person, the dial might be considered to have added value. My late mother-in-law, 40 years ago, mentioned that it was to go to our (then) ten-year old son. Yeah! Like THAT was going to happen! So he will end up with it, when I am dead and gone!
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WestCoastTime
·diamond endstones? indeed it does.
until just a few weeks ago an 18s 3/4 plate Elgin railroad watch was on my very short list of things to acquire to complete the collection and it was reasonably priced to boot!
the detail I find amusing is the threaded curved rod that the regulator uses, I'd love to know how they made that.
Note that the carrier nut turns on the curved bolt (& takes the end of the regulator arm along with it), but that the curved bolt itself is fixed in place.
I have seen this implementation referred to as a "Moseley Regulator".
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/reference/patent/157021
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JimInOz
··Melbourne Australia............................
the detail I find amusing is the threaded curved rod that the regulator uses, I'd love to know how they made that.
I guess that they used a die to cut a thread on a wire rod and then curved it, cut it to size and shaped the ends to fit the bridge.
Here is a close-up.
The threaded rod sits in wells in the bridge and is retained by the graduation adjustment plate.
Edit: After reading the patent document, it is called an "index plate".
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Waltesefalcon
·For the adjustment nut to move freely along the threaded rod the rod would have needed to have had the threads cut after it was bent. Otherwise the threads on the inside of the bend would be closer together and the threads on the outside of the bend further apart which would have caused binding as the nut traveled along it.
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Canuck
·One might wonder how a die could be used to cut the thread because of the “bolster” at each end as indicated by the arrows! I wonder if, instead of a die, a “rolling” process as shown in the second photo might have been used.
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Fritz
·Note that the carrier nut turns on the curved bolt (& takes the end of the regulator arm along with it), but that the curved bolt itself is fixed in place.
I have seen this implementation referred to as a "Moseley Regulator".
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/reference/patent/157021
For the adjustment nut to move freely along the threaded rod the rod would have needed to have had the threads cut after it was bent. Otherwise the threads on the inside of the bend would be closer together and the threads on the outside of the bend further apart which would have caused binding as the nut traveled along it.
One might wonder how a die could be used to cut the thread because of the “bolster” at each end as indicated by the arrows! I wonder if, instead of a die, a “rolling” process as shown in the second photo might have been used.
yup... thread a curved rod... the more you think about it, the more it messes with your brain.
and then you need to make a nut which will rotate on that curved rod while maintaining an accurate fit.
i spent years in quality and engineering of bearings and small assemblies like that.
, and its making my brain hurt!
the clever engineering of these guys...
Ya gotta love it!
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Canuck
·A typical threading die for small scale work like the threaded rod would typically only comprise two or three threads. That’s the way my tiny dies are. If a die could somehow have been used to thread the curved rod, the arc circumscribed by the rod while the die was working its way along the rod would be minimal. If a die comprised 10 or 12 threads in a cylindrical aspect, the threading the curved rod would not have worked well.
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JimInOz
··Melbourne AustraliaFor the adjustment nut to move freely along the threaded rod the rod would have needed to have had the threads cut after it was bent. Otherwise the threads on the inside of the bend would be closer together and the threads on the outside of the bend further apart which would have caused binding as the nut traveled along it.
Straight rod and then bend.
I think it would be possible.
A small button die around 0.61mm (0.024") to cut the thread, then bend the curve and cut the flats.
The nut would be tapped slightly oversize and possibly relieved slightly at each end. The width of the nut would also have to be kept to a minimum to prevent binding. There is negligible force in this application so I don't expect that extremely high tolerances would have been considered.
Traveling along the curve, the nut would be supported by threads at either end of the nut (inside the curve) and threads in the centre of the nut (outside the curve).
It's also possible that the rod could have been roller threaded as suggested by @Canuck. This however, would come under the "straight rod and bend" theory.
Curved rod to start with.
A typical threading die for small scale work like the threaded rod would typically only comprise two or three threads. That’s the way my tiny dies are. If a die could somehow have been used to thread the curved rod, the arc circumscribed by the rod while the die was working its way along the rod would be minimal. If a die comprised 10 or 12 threads in a cylindrical aspect, the threading the curved rod would not have worked well.
I think you may be onto something there. A small button die with few threads would be able to follow the curve of the rod.
The nut though, would still have to have the same oversizing/relieving to be able to travel the curve without binding.
I measured the curved rod/screw thingy and it's 0.61mm diameter, so not really minute in watch terms.
The rotating nut is only 1mm wide and under the microscope the threads at either end look slightly shallower, but it's difficult to see how much in comparison the the centre area threads.
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Canuck
·Straight rod and then bend.
I think it would be possible.
A small button die around 0.61mm (0.024") to cut the thread, then bend the curve and cut the flats.
The nut would be tapped slightly oversize and possibly relieved slightly at each end. The width of the nut would also have to be kept to a minimum to prevent binding. There is negligible force in this application so I don't expect that extremely high tolerances would have been considered.
Traveling along the curve, the nut would be supported by threads at either end of the nut (inside the curve) and threads in the centre of the nut (outside the curve).
It's also possible that the rod could have been roller threaded as suggested by @Canuck. This however, would come under the "straight rod and bend" theory.
Curved rod to start with.
I think you may be onto something there. A small button die with few threads would be able to follow the curve of the rod.
The nut though, would still have to have the same oversizing/relieving to be able to travel the curve without binding.
I measured the curved rod/screw thingy and it's 0.61mm diameter, so not really minute in watch terms.
The rotating nut is only 1mm wide and under the microscope the threads at either end look slightly shallower, but it's difficult to see how much in comparison the the centre area threads.
If the “nut” that follows the curved rod was threaded all the way through in a cylindrical aspect, there might be difficulty with it following the curved rod. But suppose for a moment that the cylindrical “nut” had only say two or three threads at each end of the bore, and was not threaded all the way through! What intrigues me more than this though, is how did the “nut” get onto the curved thread with a larger diameter bolster at each end of the threaded rod?
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JimInOz
··Melbourne AustraliaOne might wonder how a die could be used to cut the thread because of the “bolster” at each end as indicated by the arrows! I wonder if, instead of a die, a “rolling” process as shown in the second photo might have been used.
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the flats/bolsters were cut after the threading was done. Here is a look at one end of the rod.
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JimInOz
··Melbourne AustraliaIf the “nut” that follows the curved rod was threaded all the way through in a cylindrical aspect, there might be difficulty with it following the curved rod. But suppose for a moment that the cylindrical “nut” had only say two or three threads at each end of the bore, and was not threaded all the way through! What intrigues me more than this though, is how did the “nut” get onto the curved thread with a larger diameter bolster at each end of the threaded rod?
The nut comes off easily as the threaded area at the bolsters is the same diameter as the rest of the rod even though it looks wider in the top pics, possibly a visual illusion.
I'll see if I can get a look inside the nut to determine the secret of the threads,
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Canuck
·Elsewhere on the message board I introduced my 135 year old sterling silver English pocket watch by Stewart Dawson, Liverpool, and the 66 gram sterling silver Waldemar pocket watch chain that came with it. I have decided to add a fob to the chain. My spouse has gathered numerous Canadian silver coins of 50 cent and $1.00 denominations, over the years. I have appropriated a 1953 Canadian 50 cent coin from her hoard, and today, I bought a coin frame for it, and added it to the chain. 1953 was the year of the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II, so this was the year she replaced her father George VI on Canadian coinage. The coin frame is gold, not silver, but I was astonished at how difficult it is locally, to buy coin frames for Canadian currency!
