Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

Helvetia History · Nov 24, 2021

Here is a new one I have just received.

It is a swing ring with a screw mechanism on the crown to stop it being pulled out when tightened. Movement is probably on early version of the Helvetia Cal 32. I have seen a few of these from Helvetia, the later ones are normally marked, the serial on this one dates it to 1909.

It's very robustly made and obviously designed for heavy use and to stop the ingress of dust and water as much as possible. Omega seem to have made quite a few of this type of watch and they date to around the same time as this one which was also the same time that the Brandts were severing their ties with Helvetia so they possibly came from the same drawing office. Several seem almost identical.

This style of watch also seems more common in the US from what I have seen but it may just be because I have been looking for this type recently and it's skewing my perception. I don't know much about US pocket watches, would anyone with any more info be able to say if this is true or not?

Thanks. Carl.

Canuck · Nov 24, 2021

My apologies, but I know nothing of any connection between Omega and Helvetia. Or Swiss pocket watches, generally, as regards the history of Swiss watch companies. My main focus is on American made watches, although I do have five Swiss pocket watches in my collection. Three of them are by Omega, one private label watch I have been unable to identify the maker of, and another private label, the maker of which is in the back of my brain, but at the movement I do not remember. Your watch. What a perfect vitreous enamel dial! I fear for that dial however, because of the two missing case screws as indicated by the arrows! Open the case, flip the movement over to view it, and the movement falls out of the case! One smashed dial!

Helvetia History · Nov 24, 2021

Canuck
My apologies, but I know nothing of any connection between Omega and Helvetia. Or Swiss pocket watches, generally, as regards the history of Swiss watch companies. My main focus is on American made watches, although I do have five Swiss pocket watches in my collection. Three of them are by Omega, one private label watch I have been unable to identify the maker of, and another private label, the maker of which is in the back of my brain, but at the movement I do not remember. Your watch. What a perfect vitreous enamel dial! I fear for that dial however, because of the two missing case screws as indicated by the arrows! Open the case, flip the movement over to view it, and the movement falls out of the case! One smashed dial!

Thanks Canuck. I received the watch yesterday so I will get onto those missing screws as a priority!

Sorry for any confusion, I wasn't that clear in my post above. I know about the connection between Omega and Helvetia and have recorded all about it on my site here https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/history

My question was more as to whether my impression that this type of watch was more common in the US was correct. I seem to see a lot more US made cases than Swiss that have swing rings and screw down crowns, perhaps something to do with railroad watches?

I may be able to Identify the Swiss watch movement you have, I've looked at more movements than I care to think of and see them in my dreams!

Thanks. Carl.

Canuck · Nov 24, 2021

The unidentifiable Swiss movement I refer to is a private label watch for Porte & Markle Ltd., Winnipeg, Manitoba (Canada) which was founded in about 1903, and was bought out by Henry Birks & Sons jewellers in 1913. This movement is unusual in a number of different ways. There are 23-jewels in it (by actual count), but there are four cap jewels (endstones) that do not function as endstones! Three of the four “end-stones” are circled in the one image. Beneath these cap jewels are four regular hole jewels, and the arbors are square shouldered, not conical! It has only 19 actual functional jewels! It appears to me as though it was a Swiss movement masquerading as an American movement. It has the overall look of a good quality movement, and (to me) appears rather better finished than many Swiss movements of its time. It is engraved as “adjusted to 6 positions”, heat, cold, and (I assume) isochronism. My fingerprint catalogs have been no help trying to identify it.

As to your question regarding Swiss movements in “swing ring” cases, since there doesn’t appear to be a case maker’s trade mark shown in your pictures. But it is very common to find Swiss movements fitted into American made cases. Import tariffs in North America were much steeper on complete imported watches than the were on partially finished (i. e. un cased movement only). So Swiss movements were very often put into American made cases. The

Waltesefalcon · Nov 24, 2021

Canuck
The unidentifiable Swiss movement I refer to is a private label watch for Porte & Markle Ltd., Winnipeg, Manitoba (Canada) which was founded in about 1903, and was bought out by Henry Birks & Sons jewellers in 1913. This movement is unusual in a number of different ways. There are 23-jewels in it (by actual count), but there are four cap jewels (endstones) that do not function as endstones! Three of the four “end-stones” are circled in the one image. Beneath these cap jewels are four regular hole jewels, and the arbors are square shouldered, not conical! It has only 19 actual functional jewels! It appears to me as though it was a Swiss movement masquerading as an American movement. It has the overall look of a good quality movement, and (to me) appears rather better finished than many Swiss movements of its time. It is engraved as “adjusted to 6 positions”, heat, cold, and (I assume) isochronism. My fingerprint catalogs have been no help trying to identify it.

Definitely looks like a copy of an American watch. Is it also lever set?

Canuck · Nov 24, 2021

Waltesefalcon
Definitely looks like a copy of an American watch. Is it also lever set?

No. This “mystery” Swiss movement in not lever set. It is stem set. It has only now occurred to me that this Swiss movement very closely resembles the Hamilton 23-jewel grade 950, and the Hamilton 19-jewel grade 952, pictured. I added a bit to my previous post regarding Swiss movements in swing ring cases.

Canuck · Nov 24, 2021

The other Swiss private label pocket watch in my collection that I was unable to remember the maker of is this one. Movement is by Cortebert. Watch for D E Black Jewellers, Calgary, bought out by Henry Birks & Sons circa 1928.

Canuck · Nov 24, 2021

Canuck
The unidentifiable Swiss movement I refer to is a private label watch for Porte & Markle Ltd., Winnipeg, Manitoba (Canada) which was founded in about 1903, and was bought out by Henry Birks & Sons jewellers in 1913. This movement is unusual in a number of different ways. There are 23-jewels in it (by actual count), but there are four cap jewels (endstones) that do not function as endstones! Three of the four “end-stones” are circled in the one image. Beneath these cap jewels are four regular hole jewels, and the arbors are square shouldered, not conical! It has only 19 actual functional jewels! It appears to me as though it was a Swiss movement masquerading as an American movement. It has the overall look of a good quality movement, and (to me) appears rather better finished than many Swiss movements of its time. It is engraved as “adjusted to 6 positions”, heat, cold, and (I assume) isochronism. My fingerprint catalogs have been no help trying to identify it.

As to your question regarding Swiss movements in “swing ring” cases, since there doesn’t appear to be a case maker’s trade mark shown in your pictures. But it is very common to find Swiss movements fitted into American made cases. Import tariffs in North America were much steeper on complete imported watches than the were on partially finished (i. e. un cased movement only). So Swiss movements were very often put into American made cases. The

I discovered today that this unidentified Swiss made pocket watch movement is almost a flagrant copy of a Hamilton grade 994 movement, right down to the rather unusual pattern on the plates and bridges. The pictured grade 994 is one rare bird. There were 301 of these, pendant set, and 800 lever set versions of this movement produced. And I know where there is one (a drop dead gorgeous one in exquisite shape) for sale!

S# 1153404, this grade 994 Hamilton is closely related to the Hamilton grades 950, 950B, and the 952 shown earlier in this thread. And also the grade 950E (which I don’t have). Here’s the skinny on this rare watch. Production numbers listed in the pocketwatchdatabase.com information referred to, lists production of 1,101 watches. That includes both stem set, and lever set. The information given says the 994 is not railroad approved. But I have a strong suspicion that the lever set version of the grade 994 would be railroad approved.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/hamilton/1153404

Helvetia History · Nov 25, 2021

Canuck
The unidentifiable Swiss movement I refer to is a private label watch for Porte & Markle Ltd., Winnipeg, Manitoba (Canada) which was founded in about 1903, and was bought out by Henry Birks & Sons jewellers in 1913. This movement is unusual in a number of different ways. There are 23-jewels in it (by actual count), but there are four cap jewels (endstones) that do not function as endstones! Three of the four “end-stones” are circled in the one image. Beneath these cap jewels are four regular hole jewels, and the arbors are square shouldered, not conical! It has only 19 actual functional jewels! It appears to me as though it was a Swiss movement masquerading as an American movement. It has the overall look of a good quality movement, and (to me) appears rather better finished than many Swiss movements of its time. It is engraved as “adjusted to 6 positions”, heat, cold, and (I assume) isochronism. My fingerprint catalogs have been no help trying to identify it.

As to your question regarding Swiss movements in “swing ring” cases, since there doesn’t appear to be a case maker’s trade mark shown in your pictures. But it is very common to find Swiss movements fitted into American made cases. Import tariffs in North America were much steeper on complete imported watches than the were on partially finished (i. e. un cased movement only). So Swiss movements were very often put into American made cases. The

Thanks Canuck.

I knew I had seen you mystery movement before as soon as you posted it and after a few minutes managed to find it. It's an Electa, middle image bottom row looks a good match though perhaps a smaller version.

Image of Electa catalogue of 1914 courtesy of vintagewatchstraps.com

Helvetia History · Nov 25, 2021

Reading a bit more on David's site it looks as if Electa were owned by Gallet.

Here is a movement almost the same as yours for sale on eBay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/27468461...55-0&campid=5338722076&customid=&toolid=10050

Canuck · Nov 25, 2021

Helvetia History
Reading a bit more on David's site it looks as if Electa were owned by Gallet.

Here is a movement the same as yours for sale on eBay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/27468461...55-0&campid=5338722076&customid=&toolid=10050

View attachment 1324225

That is excellent! That likely took some digging to find that out. Mine is engraved “23-jewels”, but four cap jewels are dummies. It appears that this movement was produced in a number of grades. This subject watch is marked “17-jewels”, and it is much plainer than mine. Thank you again!

Jopi · Nov 26, 2021

Omega pocket watch from my fathers collection has got a new home with me. I am very happy about that. Hope you appreciate it.

DaveK · Nov 26, 2021

Jopi
Omega pocket watch from my fathers collection has got a new home with me. I am very happy about that. Hope you appreciate it.

what a stunning case! Earlier in this thread I posted my watch with the same typeface as yours. I wonder what the story is though with the 24hr dial addition (I assume it is aftermarket, perhaps a sticker overlay?)

TexOmega · Nov 26, 2021

Hamilton 993
Hunter version of the Famous 992.
Circa 1913.....presentation dated 1916

Gorgeous 14kt case with a nice inscription "from the boys of Mechanical Dept "B" Plant

RR grade just not RR approved(Hunter Case)........ in the US.😁

Canuck · Nov 26, 2021

So often we see presentation watches like this 108 year old beauty that leave you wondering if the recipient ever wore it! Outstanding!

Here is the skinny on @TexOmega ‘s beautiful contribution. The term “limited edition” today is ballyhooed around enough to become almost meaningless. There were only 8,700 of the Hamilton 993 produced. I see it is lever set. Chances are some time inspector, somewhere, might have approved it!

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/hamilton/10519267

TexOmega · Nov 26, 2021

I cannot remember where I copied this.

Canuck · Nov 26, 2021

You copied it from Roy Ehrhardt’s book Production Figures with Grade and Serial Numbers. Hamilton Watch Co. I have that book right by my side. Yours is the second model, with three dial feet. The earlier ones had four dial feet. Of the lever set second model, there were only 6,700 produced. Better yet! Also, the earlier ones had two screws holding the crown wheel core. Your later model has only one screw.

Canuck · Nov 26, 2021

How about this! Our modest little form now covers 77 pages, with 43,184 views, and 1,536 posts. Thanks to everyone who helps keep it alive. And it is only 10 months old!

DaveK · Nov 26, 2021

Canuck
How about this! Our modest little form now covers 77 pages, with 43,184 views, and 1,536 posts. Thanks to everyone who helps keep it alive. And it is only 10 months old!

DaveK · Nov 26, 2021

TexOmega
Hamilton 993
Hunter version of the Famous 992.
Circa 1913.....presentation dated 1916

What a beautiful piece 🥰