Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

Fritz · Aug 18, 2021

I had a Riverside variant of the model 88 movement, pictures don’t do them justice.

and the setting mechanism on that model is weird, looking a little too finicky for its own good, good luck with that one.

Canuck · Aug 19, 2021

The aforementioned 1888 model Waltham in the 14-karat hunter case appears destined to end up in the hands of a scrapper. My heart bleeds! Without the case, the movement is worthless, because the1888 model Waltham is closer to 17-size, than 16-size, and it is thicker than a standard Waltham. The movement cannot be fitted to any other case!

noelekal · Aug 19, 2021

Why should this be so that the Waltham is scrapped? That's wretched!

Canuck · Aug 19, 2021

noelekal
Why should this be so that the Waltham is scrapped? That's wretched!

That’s the way scrappers are! They belong to a fraternity of flippers. By low, sell right away. Immediate profit, regardless of the importance of the artifact. I hope the owner can be convinced to offer it at auction, perhaps by Jones & Horan, the Horological specialists.

DaveK · Aug 20, 2021

This just in today…

An Illinois size 12 Sterling-line pocket watch from 1926, with a 14k white (or maybe green) gold-filled case. The grade 405 movement has 17 jewels and 3 adjustments - I understand that the 405 movement this was pretty much middle-of-the-road quality back in the day. But, it’s running strong at 95 years old, so middle of the road was still a pretty high bar 👍. The movement though is quite nicely decorated, and the script is done in a really nice plum colour.
And, ain’t that dial pretty? 🥰

In the background are John Gilbert and Greta Garbo on the set of the 1926 MGM silent movie, Flesh and the Devil.

Canuck · Aug 20, 2021

The skinny on @DaveK ’s sharp illinois.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/illinois/4714434

The Meggers and Ehrhardt “blue book” lists the serial number range that this watch is from as the “Autocrat” grade 405, 12-size, pendant set, open faced, model 3, made in 1926. Illinois was big in the private label watch business. It could be this one is a private label for a retailer. Rayed and circular damask finished nickel plates, red or gold filled engraving. Cased at the factory.

Zapatta · Aug 21, 2021

Found these two locally. First one looks like some kind of "military style" Omega with engraving on the outer shell. Movement dates it to 1934/35. IMHO dial looks good but its damaged near 10.

This one looks like railroad watch with engraving from Kingdom of SHS ( Serbs, Croats and Slovenians) on the caseback. Movement serial dates it to 1930. This kind of engravings are seen regulary on Balkan but this one looks like it was polished and dial looks pristine. Most of the time is other way around. What are your thoughts?

Waltesefalcon · Aug 21, 2021

I don't think I've ever seen a watch that new that was pair cased. Very interesting.

That second Omega is a real looker.

DaveK · Aug 21, 2021

Canuck
...The Meggers and Ehrhardt “blue book” lists the serial number range that this watch is from as the “Autocrat” grade 405, 12-size, pendant set, open faced, model 3, made in 1926. Illinois was big in the private label watch business. It could be this one is a private label for a retailer. Rayed and circular damask finished nickel plates, red or gold filled engraving. Cased at the factory.

Thank you @Canuck , your research lead me to an NAWCC article pointing to the Sterling line being a private label of Kay Jewelry Company. Kay was incorporated in 1916 in Reading, PA by brothers Sol & Edmund Kaufman. Over time a number of stores were established nation-wide. Kay subsists to this day under the umbrella of Signet Jewellers. This is Kay’s storefront from 1916, so possibly where this watch was purchased.

And courtesy of the NAWCC, is this ad from the December 20, 1924 Afro-American News

Zapatta · Aug 21, 2021

Waltesefalcon
I don't think I've ever seen a watch that new that was pair cased. Very interesting.

That second Omega is a real looker.

By pair cased you mean that "shell" around? Thinking about buying both but can't find some solid info. Maybe I'll take a risk.

Canuck · Aug 21, 2021

It is amazing how one nugget can lead to a treasure chest, isn’t it? I believe Signet now also owns Zales, and Jared Jewellers, as well as People’s Jewellers, and Mappins Jewellers (if there are any left), in Canada. I worked for Mappins/People’s for 20 years, but left them before the went t_ _ s up, thankfully! It amazes me how much more we can enjoy our watches when we know something of the background behind them. Thanks for your research.

TexOmega · Aug 21, 2021

We have Kay Jewelers all over North Texas

Don't know if the same lineage, though.

Nice Sterling

Canuck · Aug 21, 2021

T’would be the same firm. The name would be copyrighted, I’m sure.

Waltesefalcon · Aug 21, 2021

Zapatta
By pair cased you mean that "shell" around? Thinking about buying both but can't find some solid info. Maybe I'll take a risk.

Yeah, older pocket watches up through the 1800s were often in two cases, pair cased. These watches were key wound so the back of the case needed to be pierced so that the key could be inserted to wind it. Since the hole allowed dust and whatnot to enter the case they would come with a second outer case to protect the movement from dust. When you needed to wind the watch you'd simply open the outer case, remove the inner case, wind the watch, then replace it in the outer case. It was kinda clunky so sometime around the middle of the 1800s pair cases started to be replaced with a case with an inner and outer back cover with the inner one having the piercing for the key to be inserted through.

I've never seen a watch from the 1900s that was pair cased, with the exception of a few early attempts at water proofing. So this one is interesting to me.

Someone more knowledgeable may have more info. It may be that this watch style is well known, and I am just not in the know.

Zapatta · Aug 22, 2021

Thanks for explaination! Never owned pocket watch so not my territory at all but would love to own one. Especially black dial Omega since I can't find black dialed Connie 🤔

Here is another pic, hope it helps.

Alpha · Aug 22, 2021

No music playing this morning just the sweet sound of this fella ticking away 😀

Canuck · Aug 22, 2021

Zapatta
Thanks for explaination! Never owned pocket watch so not my territory at all but would love to own one. Especially black dial Omega since I can't find black dialed Connie 🤔

Here is another pic, hope it helps.

That shows the general idea of a pair case, but that outer case didn’t come with the watch. It is a watch “protector” case. Aftermarket. The watch is not a key winder with a winding hole in the back of the case. This one is a stem winder, so no hole for winding.

Here is a true pair case watch,18th century, key winder, outer paired case with what appears to be tortoise shell cover.

Waltesefalcon · Aug 22, 2021

@Canuck , I've never seen a pocket watch with a "protector" case here in the States, were they outstripped in Europe?

I apologize if I caused any confusion with my post, @Zapatta , I didn't mean to imply that the subject watch you are looking at was a key winder.

MarktheTime · Aug 22, 2021

Sorry for the “cross post” with a dedicated thread I posted last week, but didn’t even realize this “Pocket Watch Buffs” thread existed until today. Thought I’d share a 14k Movado with Breguet numerals I was fortunate enough to find recently. Really beautiful and elegant piece. I believe it’s from the 1930s, and caliber 250N, but am happy to learn more if anyone can add any details. I’m awaiting my copy of the Osterhausen reference book, at the suggestion of another OF member. Info on vintage Movado is much more scarce than what I’m used to finding with Universal Geneve, my primary passion. Thanks for looking.

Canuck · Aug 22, 2021

Waltesefalcon
@Canuck , I've never seen a pocket watch with a "protector" case here in the States, were they outstripped in Europe?

I apologize if I caused any confusion with my post, @Zapatta , I didn't mean to imply that the subject watch you are looking at was a key winder.

“Protector” cases like the one shown that were fitted to stem winder watches were a aftermarket add on, purchased when the owner of the watch wanted to protect it from the damage resulting from heavy wear. Adding one of these cases to a pocket watch didn’t result in what is called a “pair case”. The hunter case with hinged covers on the back, and sometimes the front of a key winder probably came along very late in the 18th century, or early 19th century. The pair case petered out after the introduction of the hunter case. Generally speaking, if a key wind pocket watch had a verge escapement and fusee, they were pretty well always in pair cases. With the advent of slimmer key wind watches with lever escapements, and more compact fusee designs, watches got a lot slimmer. In keeping with the slimmer movements, the hunter case came along. The hunter case had a hinged cover over the face, and two hinged covers on the back. It was much more compact than the pair case, and the aperture for the key was still protected. There are also key wind watches with hinged double backs, but open faces.