Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

Canuck · May 6, 2021

river rat
For one of the pit falls. Here is one I did when first getting in this hobby 15-20 years ago. Just because it looks pretty I should of paid less due to it being a re-case. Even though the case looks mint most likely Hamilton never sold it in this case or hand variation. Maybe one I should of passed on. You want original case and hands and movement on a railroad pocket watch will hold it's value better. This is the only type of case railroad case you pull the crown to get to the movement. You unscrew bezel off then pull crown there a notch to use your finger nail there a hinge on the case and the movement swings out. A good one to use and not keep as a safe queen.

@river rat ,

The movement is railroad grade, but the watch may not have been railroad approved. Railroad grade watches were available to non-railroaders, as well. Chances are this watch was bought in a retail jewellery store/railroad watch inspector shop. By the time your watch was built, Hamilton was shipping them cased in one of the dozen or so cases we expect to see on a 992B. Chances are the person who purchased it, didn’t like the case the movement was in, or the hands that were on it. The retailer may have had an inventory of cases that were available before watches were shipped, cased. The customer may have chosen this case, and the hands, and the retailer did the swap for the customer.

There was a long list of essential features a watch had to have, to be considered a railroad standard watch by the hard and fast time standards that prevailed. BUT, it is a known fact that some railroads would have accepted a watch that didn’t meet ALL the standards. Your watch had the right movement and dial. There is no reason the case would not have been accepted as railroad standard. That leaves the hands. While not typical for most railroad standard watches of the era, there is no reason that many railroads would have accepted them. The case is outstanding! I wouldn’t have turned the watch down had it come my way. I think it may have passed as a railroad watch.

river rat · May 6, 2021

Canuck you mite be right no other screw marks on the case so mite be original movement to the case. I have another one a Waltham we’re it has a railroad grade movement but the case not your normal railroad case that case to is sort of mint I will post that when I have time to take photos.

Canuck · May 6, 2021

Our little thread started out on Feb. 22, 2021, with 5 people expressing an interest in a thread devoted to pocket watches. (Thanks to @DaveK). Well, the thread is now 12 weeks old, and we have had 17,226 views, 861 posts, in 44 pages, and we have had 44 individuals posting to our thread! Lots of folks have re-discovered a forgotten pocket watch, and many others interest has been piqued to the point they have acquired a pocket watch or two. I suspect that this has happened as a result of their having been exposed to some pretty fabulous watches, and they have acquired welcome knowledge by following this thread. This enables new collectors to develop a feeling for the types of watches that interest them, most. And most importantly, more and more watches are showing up with @DaveK lanyards! 😉 Thanks to all of you who have helped foster a renewed interest in pocket watches.

In addition, there have been numerous other threads pertaining to pocket watches.

Canuck · May 6, 2021

I had an interesting watch sent my way, today. This watch is going to be listed on an on line auction close to end of May. The auction house wants my opinion on it.

Gruen Veri-Thin, 12-size, 21-jewels, adjusted to 6 positions, temperature, isochronism, patent micrometer regulator, 14-karat white gold case. Presented in 1930 by a Shrine temple to an esteemed member. This watch has probably sat, unused, for 50+ years, and is currently not running. But it’s condition is such that a recondition would return it to health.

Inside case back marked PENTAGON, patented 3-27-22, Gruen Veri-Thin, movement adjusted in U S A. Usually, Gruen cases are marked inside the case back with the movement calibre, and case style. This one isn’t marked.

river rat · May 7, 2021

Here is a B.W. Raymond 21 jewel, lever set, adjusted to 5 positions with invar balance railroad watch. The balance fork for a invar balance looks like a running many years ago some how it got bent. My watchmaker at the time could not find one for this model he had it over 6 months he ended up bending it back and works great now.

Right below the bow Elgin R.R. was told that the bow is solid gold on these case probably a story.

noelekal · May 7, 2021

Liking that Elgin river rat. Been trying to absorb Elgin and which are quality movements. Some internet sources are placing Elgin beneath the pecking order of Hamilton, Illinois, and Waltham in whatever American pocket watch snob hierarchy there may be. I don't have a valid opinion, but am trying to figure it out. Have seen claims that Elgin watches don't display the quality and workmanship the others can feature. I wouldn't know. Wouldn't recognize differencers if I dropped an entire crate of Elgin pocket watches on my big toe.

In fact I was in a nearby town 30 miles away and stopped in the pawn shops to browse. Saw a Elgin hunter in a really attractive case. Was gold plated I suppose. Couldn't find a hallmark and the markings didn't clue me on manufacturer. But, it was a gorgeous hue of gold in first rate unworn condition. Was engraved with a scene that just had to be Halstatt, Austria, complete with scroll border and scroll decoration on the other side. Was a smaller size hunter than a 16-18. Hinge springs didn't open the covers which had to be assisted to open. Movement was a decorated Elgin, with full plates, with pretty black inlaid scroll markings, and few jewels. Nice fire blued screws, all untouched. Tag claimed it was from the 1890s. $395. They'll usually deal, but I will have to return with better lenses for a thorough inspection and to take notes for research if I determine that I would want it.

Canuck · May 7, 2021

noelekal
Liking that Elgin river rat. Been trying to absorb Elgin and which are quality movements. Some internet sources are placing Elgin beneath the pecking order of Hamilton, Illinois, and Waltham in whatever American pocket watch snob hierarchy there may be. I don't have a valid opinion, but am trying to figure it out. Have seen claims that Elgin watches don't display the quality and workmanship the others can feature. I wouldn't know. Wouldn't recognize differencers if I dropped an entire crate of Elgin pocket watches on my big toe.

In fact I was in a nearby town 30 miles away and stopped in the pawn shops to browse. Saw a Elgin hunter in a really attractive case. Was gold plated I suppose. Couldn't find a hallmark and the markings didn't clue me on manufacturer. But, it was a gorgeous hue of gold in first rate unworn condition. Was engraved with a scene that just had to be Halstatt, Austria, complete with scroll border and scroll decoration on the other side. Was a smaller size hunter than a 16-18. Hinge springs didn't open the covers which had to be assisted to open. Movement was a decorated Elgin, with full plates, with pretty black inlaid scroll markings, and few jewels. Nice fire blued screws, all untouched. Tag claimed it was from the 1890s. $395. They'll usually deal, but I will have to return with better lenses for a thorough inspection and to take notes for research if I determine that I would want it.

I would LOVE to talk to anyone with that opinion! One could write a book about that topic, and neither you nor I have the time.

Elgin folded about 70 years ago, and the name has changed hands several times. Latter day Elgin watches are produced by opportunists who dump crap with an Elgin name on the buyer, milking any good will that might still be in the name. Elgin American can’t be blamed for that. Model for model, era for era, I would stack Elgin up against any of the otherAmerican makers. The were the largest producer of quality, jewelled watches in the USA. They were doing something right.

Just be certain you are comparing an Elgin watch with 17-jewels, 3 position adjustments, and temperature, against a competitor’s similarly equipped watch! You can’t compare a garden variety Elgin with a Hamilton 950 or a Waltham Vanguard.

Elgin’s inferior? There are ruder words I could use than “poppycock”, but poppycock will do.

Canuck · May 7, 2021

river rat
Here is a B.W. Raymond 21 jewel, lever set, adjusted to 5 positions with invar balance railroad watch. The balance fork for a invar balance looks like a running many years ago some how it got bent. My watchmaker at the time could not find one for this model he had it over 6 months he ended up bending it back and works great now.

Right below the bow Elgin R.R. was told that the bow is solid gold on these case probably a story.

The bolster that houses the crown and the bow appear to me to be losing a bit of the plating. Why would Elgin fit a karat gold bow to a gold filled case. Defies logic! Unless someone used an original plated bow, made a mold of it, and cast a new one, in gold.

You used the word invar re: your Elgin. Invar was the name given by Dr. Guillaume, the developer. Hamilton hired him, and re-named the invar alloy to Elinvar. Then later, after improvements in the alloy, Elinvar Extra. I believe Elgin had a copyrighted name for their version. So did Waltham. Elgin called it “Elginium”, and Waltham called it “Conium”.

Here’s the skinny on your Elgin.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/26819569

noelekal · May 7, 2021

Thanks Canuck.

Don't recall where I read this. The comment had to do with Elgin movements looking nice, but a disassembly will find that Elgin parts are less finely finished and Elgin workmanship was second rate. I remembered the comment, but can't place any stock in it for I've not taken apart an Elgin to examine its innards. If I did, I wouldn't know what I was looking at. Elgin certainly has some movements that qualified for workin' on the railroad. They, at least superficially, look as nice as the other three makers I mentioned earlier.

Here's an Elgin that reminds me of the one I saw today. The dial was of this style and font.

This movement is similar to that Elgin I saw in the pawn shop only the pawn shop Elgin was cleaner.

Canuck · May 7, 2021

noelekal
Thanks Canuck.

Don't recall where I read this. The comment had to do with Elgin movements looking nice, but a disassembly will find that Elgin parts are less finely finished and Elgin workmanship was second rate. I remembered the comment, but can't place any stock in it for I've not taken apart an Elgin to examine its innards. If I did, I wouldn't know what I was looking at. Elgin certainly has some movements that qualified for workin' on the railroad. They, at least superficially, look as nice as the other three makers I mentioned earlier.

Here's an Elgin that reminds me of the one I saw today. The dial was of this style and font.

This movement is similar to that Elgin I saw in the pawn shop only the pawn shop Elgin was cleaner.

If that assertion was coming from someone comparing a dismantled Elgin from the 1950s with a dismantled equivalent 1920s vintage movement from another maker, chances are the difference would show up. However, if that same person was comparing a 1920s vintage Elgin with an equivalent 1950s vintage movement from another manufacturer, he would see a difference there, as well. The American watch manufacturers did rationalize the features in their watches as the years went by, in order to keep the price down. I’ll show you a direct comparison between a Hamilton grade 950 fro the early 1920s, to a Hamilton 950B from the 1950s. Cosmetically, the 950B is much “cheaper” looking. But for a variety of reasons, it was a better watch than the 950. I could do the same comparison on watches from other makers as well, but I think you’ll get my point.

The 950 has gold train wheels, gold jewel setting milled into the plates with screws holding them. Much higher finish on the steel parts, gold balance wheel screws.

The 950B has brass train wheels, brass jewel setting, friction fit, no screws holding the jewel settings, shared steel parts with cheaper 992B, brass balance wheel screws. But the 950B was a better watch, just not aesthetically. So someone making statements like whoever you heard them from, has clearly not considered context when they make statements like that.

Finally, the Elgin hunter watch that you showed is only a 7-jewel. I strongly suggest you tread carefully If considering a 7-jewel watch. Very often, the low jewel count can mean they are worn out! I suggest you don’t buy them!

Waltesefalcon · May 7, 2021

Canuck
Just be certain you are comparing an Elgin watch with 17-jewels, 3 position adjustments, and temperature, against a competitor’s similarly equipped watch! You can’t compare a garden variety Elgin with a Hamilton 950 or a Waltham Vanguard.

This is the most important thing. Elgin was a huge manufacturer that made more calibers than nearly anyone else. Their high end stuff stacks up nicely, but they also made cheap 7 and 11 jewel watches that don't. If you are looking at a B.W. Raymond or a Lord Elgin you're looking at a fine watch.

Canuck · May 7, 2021

Here’s another direct comparison. These watches are both 23-jewel Waltham Vanguards. The one model from 1908, the other from 1948. Both were, in their day, capable of doing the job they were meant to do, equally well. The 1948 Waltham doesn’t compare, aesthetically, yet it might be considered the better watch. Appearance alone might cause the unedified to say that the 1948 one was of lower quality. Put the case back on both these watches,
turn them over, and use them for the intended purpose, they are equally capable. Speaking as a railroader (which I’m not), he wouldn’t prefer either over the other. Speaking as a collector, which do I prefer? Aesthetically, the 1908 model. The 1948 model is plainer, but it has all the qualities it needs in order to do the job it was made to do. But it definitely is not inferior, otherwise.

river rat · May 8, 2021

Here is one of my Waltham Vanguard 23 jewel pocket watches. Made around 1918.

Canuck · May 8, 2021

@river rat ,

Outstanding! The 1908 model Vanguard is a fave of mine. Here’s the skinny on yours.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/22255962

The arrow in the attached photo points to the rose cut diamond end stone on the balance staff. There will be a diamond behind the dial as well.

noelekal · May 8, 2021

There sure are some enablers in here with fine collections, having nice pocket watches in depth. Thanks to each of you for posting them (I think). Now I gotta ask myself just how many I really need.

river rat · May 8, 2021

We’re I use to live before I moved to Montana. I had a local chapter NAWCC that had a mart every other month. You all ways found a cheap deal and brought some thing home. That’s how I ended up with a few. Before the move I sold a bit of the collection at the same mart I bought some of it from and at a coin show. And even a few at a antique watch shop in a town not far from me we’re I live now. But kept ones I liked. Still ad stuff but not as much as I use to. That zenith WW1 us issued pocket watch was the first pocket watch I bought in about 7-10 years. If I was near a NAWCC mart I would be in trouble. Some sellers at these marts would have over a 100 watches for sell.

Dan S · May 8, 2021

Obviously, most of the interest here is in American watches, and for good reason. But I have one nice Swiss PW that I will add to the thread for some contrast. It's an IWC, cal 73 finger-bridge movement from 1928. It has clearly been used, but remains in good condition and has retained all of its original parts. The dial is metal, and has a subtle brushed finish that didn't show up very well in the photos. While you can tell it's well-made, and the movement is gold-plated, it is quite plain and undecorated.

This movement is the open-face version of the full-hunter cal 74 that was famously incorporated into IWC's legendary ref 325 "Portuguiser" in 1939-42 for its original run of ~300 watches.

TexOmega · May 8, 2021

noelekal
Thanks Canuck.

Don't recall where I read this. The comment had to do with Elgin movements looking nice, but a disassembly will find that Elgin parts are less finely finished and Elgin workmanship was second rate. I remembered the comment, but can't place any stock in it for I've not taken apart an Elgin to examine its innards. If I did, I wouldn't know what I was looking at. Elgin certainly has some movements that qualified for workin' on the railroad. They, at least superficially, look as nice as the other three makers I mentioned earlier.

Here's an Elgin that reminds me of the one I saw today. The dial was of this style and font.

This movement is similar to that Elgin I saw in the pawn shop only the pawn shop Elgin was cleaner.

If smaller than a 12s probably a ladies model. Alot were very nice on the case and dial but a low count on the jeweling.

My only ladies model(Royal) is from American Watch Co.(Waltham) at 13j and a extremely nice 18kt case. Circa 1883.

TexOmega · May 8, 2021

noelekal
There sure are some enablers in here with fine collections, having nice pocket watches in depth. Thanks to each of you for posting them (I think). Now I gotta ask myself just how many I really need.

Lots

Canuck · May 8, 2021

TexOmega
If smaller than a 12s probably a ladies model. Alot were very nice on the case and dial but a low count on the jeweling.

My only ladies model(Royal) is from American Watch Co.(Waltham) at 13j and a extremely nice 18kt case. Circa 1883.

@TexOmega ,

Your Waltham might be considered a ladie’s size in the era in which it was made. The pocket watch data.com list calls it an 8-size. By the turn of the 20th century, the 6-size and 0-size were more popular for women. Your 8-size might also be a size that would appeal to a man who likes a smaller watch. The case is exquisite.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/1990104

Note that the dial is marked A W Co., Waltham, for American Watch Co.. This dial likely made before the name was changed to Waltham Watch Co.