Cal. 321 vs. 861 Maintenance

Posts
8,890
Likes
28,366
Does Omega still manufacture parts for the 321? Or would a donor have to be found (or something 3D printed) if a piece fails? Thanks.

Some stuff isn’t available (or perhaps available outside of for the purposes of Swatch groups own workshops?).

As I understand it, 321s are a “return to Bienne” only movement now, if you’re authorised, you’re not meant to be working on them.
 
Posts
16,856
Likes
47,859
It’s amazing what you can do with a 3D printer 😕

Won't see anything in my lifetime, most parts are three different metals. 3D printing vintage parts pops up every 3-6 months and if you search it you will see


Saved @Archer from having to answer this again

Going to be a while before the technology is far enough advanced to be of much use for movement parts. There's more to a typical movement part than just a specific shape - surface finish, materials (sometimes more than 1 for a completed part), and mechanical properties all have to be satisfied.

I know many believe that being able to print finished parts that can be dropped into a movement is just around the corner, but based on comments I've seen from watchmakers who have experimented with this technology, it's a long way from being adequate right now.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
29,218
Likes
75,506
Does Omega still manufacture parts for the 321? Or would a donor have to be found (or something 3D printed) if a piece fails? Thanks.

Many parts for the 321 are currently discontinued, and even people with parts accounts (like myself) can't order them. If you order some parts that are still available, they come in very old packaging, so clearly they are using up existing stock, and not making new parts. Some parts are available on the open market - when watchmakers who have stashes of parts die or retire, people buy up estates, and parts find their way into circulation. There are suppliers out there who specialize in hard to find parts, but the prices of these parts are high as I've already mentioned.

In extreme cases, yes donor movements can be used, but that strategy doesn't always work - often the same parts you are trying to replace is worn in the donor movement, so you are no further ahead.

3D printing - right now that just a fantasy...

As I understand it, 321s are a “return to Bienne” only movement now, if you’re authorised, you’re not meant to be working on them.

It depends on what you mean by "authorized" so just to help clarify...I hope...

If you are an Omega service center, then you have to send any Cal. 321 watches you get to Bienne for service - it's been that way for years now. It can be hard to define exactly what being a service center means, so the best way I can differentiate this is that an official Omega service center will offer an Omega warranty, that is transferrable and will be honoured by any Omega service center around the world, and you would have to honour any watch brought to you with such a warranty.

For me personally, I have no such restrictions, because I'm an independent watchmaker and I don't do any work on behalf of Omega. I believe that STS for example has split their business in two parts, where one is the official Omega service center, and the other is not. It's the side that is not official that handles the 321 work I believe, and this was their way around the rule that they all had to be sent back to Bienne.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
2,845
Likes
9,196
Thanks for your contributions @Archer.

Is there a point at which new parts can be manufactured? Would this be something Omega themselves would do? Yes, 3d printing is far out there, but what else can be done to make parts (other than use a paper clip, of course)?
 
Posts
29,218
Likes
75,506
Thanks for your contributions @Archer.

Is there a point at which new parts can be manufactured? Would this be something Omega themselves would do? Yes, 3d printing is far out there, but what else can be done to make parts (other than use a paper clip, of course)?

I think it really depends on the part in question. I suspect that Omega may have stock of parts that they hold back for their own use, but I would also think that at some point in time they will start returning watches that they don't have parts for, saying they can't be fixed. They already do this with some watches, but given the Speedmasters place in Omega history, they might make exceptions for it - who knows.

For those who are doing service outside Omega, well we have to use our own skills and contacts. I have bought up rare parts when I see them, knowing that I'll be holding onto them and tying up money on the chance that I might need them some day. A while back the elusive hammer spring was a hot topic for this movement, and I know in the past someone had made replacements, but those are fairly straightforward parts compared to many others.

I also have contacts who do nothing but manufacture parts, and honestly it's cheaper for me to have them make it then for me to do it myself, since I don't make parts every day, and they do. So they can make parts from scratch, but also can repair parts - for example if a pivot is worn or broken off, they can repivot a wheel. One guy I use can even make escape wheels, and trust me those are complex to make.

But can he make a balance complete with balance spring, collet, stud, roller table, etc.? I've never asked him and I would hate to think what the cost would be...

So can parts me manufactured? Yes...maybe...sort of...

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
891
Likes
1,657
It’s ok, substitutes for rare parts can be fashioned out of paperlips

To be fair, you wouldn't really expect him to be an expert on the 321 or 861 movements, the resonances with the Speedmaster give him a headache just pondering them.

I'm no expert or a watchmaker just a Lemania fan!
To be fair "he" should have said Lemania 1873. That is the 3 register with camlever. Found in a bunch of brands including Omega, Tissot and Breitling to name a few. The differences could possibly be the design of hands, branding of crown, some part having branding like bridges, maybe case screws? To my knowledge the Lemania 1873 functionally would be "the same" as the Omega 861. My guess would be closer to 90% of components are same. I'm sure Al (@Archer ) will correct me if I got anything wrong.

Sources
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Lemania_1873
http://www.old-omegas.com/860enser.html
https://omegaforums.net/threads/speedmaster-calibers-321-vs-861-vs-1861.6563/#post-77396
https://www.cliniquehorlogere.ch/fr/base-chronos/lemania-alfred-lugrin-l-orient/lwc-1873.html

Cheers
Pat
 
Posts
167
Likes
428
How many of us use the watches often enough to wear out parts? Mine come out on rotational about once a month, if what. It's like my old car if I put 2,000 miles on it I'm doing very well.
 
Posts
538
Likes
519
I wear my '56 Connie everyday.. 505 movement. I have a extra complete movement but I'm really worried about it. I don't want to lose my watch and is important history of omega too.. I'm just hopeful for the future.
 
Posts
8,890
Likes
28,366
How many of us use the watches often enough to wear out parts? Mine come out on rotational about once a month, if what. It's like my old car if I put 2,000 miles on it I'm doing very well.

Well we’re talking about watches, which in some cases are now 60 years old - so it not so much how often we will use them, but how much they’re already been used (and potentially abused).
 
Posts
29,218
Likes
75,506
I'm no expert or a watchmaker just a Lemania fan!
To be fair "he" should have said Lemania 1873. That is the 3 register with camlever. Found in a bunch of brands including Omega, Tissot and Breitling to name a few. The differences could possibly be the design of hands, branding of crown, some part having branding like bridges, maybe case screws? To my knowledge the Lemania 1873 functionally would be "the same" as the Omega 861. My guess would be closer to 90% of components are same. I'm sure Al (@Archer ) will correct me if I got anything wrong.

Sources
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Lemania_1873
http://www.old-omegas.com/860enser.html
https://omegaforums.net/threads/speedmaster-calibers-321-vs-861-vs-1861.6563/#post-77396
https://www.cliniquehorlogere.ch/fr/base-chronos/lemania-alfred-lugrin-l-orient/lwc-1873.html

Cheers
Pat

Yes the Lemania 1873 is what the Omega 861 is based on. Again very different movement from the 321...
 
Posts
167
Likes
428
Well we’re talking about watches, which in some cases are now 60 years old - so it not so much how often we will use them, but how much they’re already been used (and potentially abused).

Agreed but you can work the condition into the price you pay?

PS I also try to wear my watches each day but because I bike into work I'm not happy to wear them on my wrist while using the London roads.
 
Posts
8,890
Likes
28,366
Agreed but you can work the condition into the price you pay?

Of course - the issue has just become that some parts are no longer available... so you need to go in eyes (and wallet) open.

I think we're at a point in the market where if you're buying these watches, for the prices asked, you should be researching servicing costs/challenges too... much like classic cars. 👍
 
Posts
891
Likes
1,657
Of course - the issue has just become that some parts are no longer available... so you need to go in eyes (and wallet) open.

I think we're at a point in the market where if you're buying these watches, for the prices asked, you should be researching servicing costs/challenges too... much like classic cars. 👍
I would consider your good points with all vintage watch purchases as a rule.

An additional point would be what kind of wis do you consider yourself. The hunter, pet project/red cross, King safe Queens, Everyday everywhere or a serial flipper Etc Etc

@neilbardsley the "PS point" I hear you. Just have a bike watch and change when you get into work. Storeing your precious in a "pelco" case. Or have safe storage near work. There is always a way to work a little vintage into your life.
😀 🥰
 
Posts
4,440
Likes
18,251
In order of reference.
Omega cal 320/321 was based on Lemania CH27/CH27c12 and entirely made by Lemania.

This design spawned a number of variants, all based on the same base movement.
List below complete as of late 50s/early 60s (Lemania designations).



There was also a budget version with cam lever called the 12xx / Lemania 105.
This shares some more components with the CH27.

As for the later Omega 861/186x, Lemania 187x, this was an entirely new development.

The same man, Mr Albert Piguet, head of Lemania technical development, was responsible for developing both the 321/861, however there is about 25 years separating the two designs.
Edited:
 
Posts
2,008
Likes
3,386
😀
Of course - the issue has just become that some parts are no longer available... so you need to go in eyes (and wallet) open.

I think we're at a point in the market where if you're buying these watches, for the prices asked, you should be researching servicing costs/challenges too... much like classic cars. 👍

It’s an interesting analogy, the servicing and other costs associated with keeping a classic car. I agree, to own a classic car is a significant investment that requires considerable research and due diligence. Many moons ago I was lucky enough to work as a coach trimmer, dismantling vintage cars and then restoring them. We used to do everything we could to keep things as original as possible, even the leather upholstery; when we couldn’t we did things like using buffalo hide on a 1940s Mercedes as the seats would look aged even though they were new.

As I recall, car dealers would scour South America for vintage cars, pay something like 100,000 UK pounds for them, ship them to the UK, then pay for a complete overhaul and restoration. This would involve stripping the car back, new paint, new chrome, new trim, bodywork checked and fixed if necessary, refurbished engine, etc., etc. As far as practicable we would reuse the original parts but it wasn’t always possible so we had to fabricate or source similar suitable new parts as required. There really couldn’t be too many complaints as the car would not be able to be restored otherwise. When the car was finished it would not be able to be referred to as ‘pristine’ (for legal reasons) but was able to be driven as if it were a new car, and could be sold for a fair chunk of money (think much more than a Newman Daytona watch price). As there weren’t many of these cars surviving the market was strong, comparable to 321 watches.

Cars with extra provenance (Le Mans C Type Jaguars for example), true barn finds (there are still many out there!), and cars in exceptional original condition would command much higher prices, and could be compared with watches with 321 movements. These would be concours rated classic cars and as such many would only be driven a few miles each year, with most taken to shows on trailers. In time perhaps most surviving 321 watches will only be used occasionally, brought out for Hodinkee videos, shows and such like.

I’m not sure what the current state of the classic car market in South America is, but if it’s the same as the current eBay Speedmaster, etc. situation in Peru, etc. then I would expect there to be a lot of vandalised lemons out there. Imagine opening your container to find a Ferrari with a Ford engine, etc. or a pile of metal (I know that wouldn’t happen, I’m just making a frivolous comparison).

As a post isn’t a post without a photo, here’s the first classic car I worked on, and one of my favourites - a beautiful supercharged Mercedes-Benz Spezial Roadster originally built by hand at Sindelfingen, and overhauled and restored by hand in Kensington in 1985. I can imagine driving this wearing a period 14K gold Constellation 😀

 
Posts
384
Likes
686
How many of us use the watches often enough to wear out parts? Mine come out on rotational about once a month, if what. It's like my old car if I put 2,000 miles on it I'm doing very well.
I wear my 145.012-67 every single day of the week. Am I worried about spare parts? Guess I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it. In the meantime, I enjoy my watch to the max!
 
Posts
2,158
Likes
5,706
For me personally, I have no such restrictions, because I'm an independent watchmaker and I don't do any work on behalf of Omega. I believe that STS for example has split their business in two parts, where one is the official Omega service center, and the other is not. It's the side that is not official that handles the 321 work I believe, and this was their way around the rule that they all had to be sent back to Bienne.

Cheers, Al

Ahh... so that is why my STS service paperwork is headed "Swisstec".😕..... Thanks for sorting that one out in my head Al.👍
 
Posts
1,716
Likes
5,190
How much more difficult/expensive is it to service/fix a cal. 321 vs. 861?

In the market for my first Speedy and long-term maintenance is a concern. I prefer the cal. 321, but have been warned that servicing it might be a nightmare. Any guidance/tips would be welcome. Thanks mates!


the hardest or near impossible to service a 321 compared to an 861 is when you damage the hairspring of the former. you cannot find a blue steel Breguet hairspring in any part of the world. if well maintain, it's a lifetime guaranty to work and tell time accurately. that's why it's the most expensive part (afik) of the watch.
Edited:
 
Posts
13,487
Likes
53,049
I find this very amusing given the fact that I own a wide range of ancient chronographs which are all up to date on service. A good restoration watchmaker can bring any watch back from the dead.(without paper clips) I paid $1600 😲 to service my 2998-6 but I imagine that with my current shop it would be 4-600 USD .. fabrication/sourcing of parts extra. Own a 321 because you want and can afford one. Just understand that it's a defacto sunny day dress watch now.
 
Posts
2,219
Likes
4,946
the hardest or near impossible to service a 321 compared to an 861 is when you damage the hairspring of the former. you cannot find a blue steel Breguet hairspring in any part of the world. if well maintain, it's a lifetime guaranty to work and tell time accurately. that's why it's the most expensive part (afik) of the watch.

I assume you have a 321 with a damaged hairspring and, to me, you have a few options:

It would have to be very badly damaged to not be recoverable so, start here. In general, it can be re-shaped but, I'd say, only 10-20% of watchmakers will have the desire and ability to do this.

I can still buy a 320 (321) complete balance which includes the hairspring but, there are not many out there. I'd assume your watchmaker has contacts for finding such parts as well. By the way, not all these 321 balances are the same so, there is a risk that anything bought is not totally suitable.

Send it to Omega as I find it hard to believe they are not keeping some parts back for internal use. I could be wrong, though.

If there really is no other way, then you buy a flat hairspring and form the overcoil at the bench. You're down to 5-10% of watchmakers now and it will be expensive. You can still buy steel hairspring blanks in a huge range of stiffness values for about $1 each, although calculating the stiffness you need is not simple at all, and that's the easy part...

We don't write a watch off just because of hairspring damage and, as @Larry S says, most other parts can be resolved as well so,why not just buy what you want and wear it. I have a classic car and the value has leapt by about a factor of 5 in the last ten years, which has pushed all the original parts prices up in a similar manner - I couldn't afford the car now but, that's not going to change the fact that I drive it as I want to. If not, it's not worth having. At least in a watch, the movement should be protected by the case so with regular servicing, you shouldn't get too many surprises.

Cheers, Chris