Auction review - unknown Speedmaster at Hansons

I do like this concept of sale/auction reviews, as certainly I always seem to learn something from each one. So thanks Spacefruit and recently pdxleaf for those. Here's my attempt:

I have a thing for boxes, as some of you may know, and so this caught my eye at Hanson's, a group of regional auction houses in the UK.

Link is here.

Here's Hanson's headline:

"Omega- a gentleman's automatic steel cased Speedmaster wristwatch"



Well, ummm, ok, that doesn't look right. I'd better read on.

"Omega- a gentleman's automatic steel cased Speedmaster wristwatch, circa 1960's, comprising a signed round black dial with applied lume baton indices, lume inserts to hour and minute, centre seconds, dtri subsidiary dials, outer seconds tack, black Tachymeter bezel, case approx 40mm, logo crown winder, to a bracelet link strap with fold over logo clasp, along with original box, Mexico Olympics along with original parts and service papers, Omega red travel case General condition: working at time of report, some fine scratches to glass, case and bracelet commensurate with wear Note: regarding watches/pocket watches please note movements untested, functionality untested, for more information request a condition report with specific questions or please view in person"

Forgetting the watch for a moment, as I didn't come for that, let us look at the box. I do love these Mexico Olympic boxes, and many don't have their insides, but this one does. They came in a number of variants, in white or yellow and with various names, Omega, Seamaster, Chronostop and with or without the full Mexico games logo. The yellow Seamaster variant usually comes with a bright green velvet interior. This variant is white, with the Omega name, and with the Mexico logo - a variant that I don't have yet in my collection so that's now got me interested.

Externally, the box is not in perfect condition. It's a bit late in the day now to ask for more photos and I can't get to the auction house in person, so let's press on... The outside has clear corner staining, which tells me that this has likely seen some damp or water damage. Above the logo there is some puncture damage, but the gold logo is clear and in excellent shape, without much rubbing or fading. This is quite rare, as the print quality was not that great at the time, so that's good but mixed due to the section with loss.

Inside the box, it's like new - so it's been restored likely - although I have seen a few that have been kept in excellent condition. But to me, that interior is not consistent with the exterior or with the watch, but if the owner had it as a daily wearer then it's all plausible. No way to tell without an inspection.

https://hansonslive.hansonsauctioneers.co.uk/images/lot/4712/471215_0.jpg?1700987045
For the watch, obviously it's not an automatic as described. If came with the box originally then it would be a 1967-9 vintage. What have we got? Well if you know your dials extremely well, you can get right to it very quickly, but it took me a few minutes to work it out. Firstly I thought to myself - here we have a transitional, perhaps without lume. Then I noticed there is only "SWISS MADE", without the "T"s, which raised an eyebrow. The hands are all new, I noticed, so it's been serviced. Ah, of course, it is the luminova service dial that Omega routinely used to replace raised logo dials.

Oh dear. Well, that's a shame. Maybe it's in the bag of bits.



Ok so this is interesting. We have a DON bezel, the original set of hands and plenty of parts. The potential to restore the watch. But no, because we don't have the original dial. Thanks Omega service dept.




So, what do we have. The is case is well used, looks like it has been polished, but we don't see too much of it in the photographs supplied. We could go into detail here on the crown and pushers, but we've already got some red flags.

So for me the value is only in the DON bezel and hands, which we can't make out the quality of, and the hands anyway won't match the dial as the original dial is AWOL. Value-wise, I'm putting a generous £1,300 on the bezel and £300 on the box, then I'm left with valuing a service dialed 861 probably from late-60s but who knows as we don't have the serial or reference. If we put £2,500 value on that then we are at £4,100.



This auction house charges 39% fees (!!) including taxes, so we can bid up £2,900, maybe £3,000. However I don't see much value here for me as so much is guesswork is required due to lack of information and photos. Ultimately it would have been better to have inspected in person or to have received more info well in advance.

So that's how I looked at it just prior to the auction - bidding was competitive and the price rose quickly to £3,300 and hammered there. That's £4,600 all in, plus a few hundred quid for packing and insured shipping to me. Someone either saw some value I didn't or didn't see the service dial I suspect. Let me know your thoughts.

Anyway, I hope you found some value in this. All photos are Copyright Hanson.

I see the original hour and chrono seconds hands… though I’m not going to hold my breath those will come out unscathed.

Yes absolutely - complete guesswork as to what shape they are in, but at least there is lume!

“…..Service dial 861”
Very likely a service dial on a 321 movement IMO.

Yes, could have been of course - can you tell from the parts? 😀

AFAIK they didn’t make a raised logo, long indice service dial for the 861 but I could be wrong.

Edit to add: yes, there is one for 861 but it isn’t a service dial so would be a result of a mod, not a normal service like this one looks like it’s had.

MWO is not 100% clear on this - they reference the B-S service dial that replaces all Professional dials with applied logos, and obviously there are both 321 and 861 versions of the applied dials, so this implies there are two versions of the service dial, but it doesn't actually say that. I would have thought Omega would have had to supply both, though. I guess a run through the service parts list would confirm, or are you ahead of me there?

I see nothing exciting here. It is a late 60s/early 70s model with modern SL dial and replaced bezel. Yes the original bezel is present but might be junk. What are you going to do about the missing dial? Based on the 1171 bracelet, which has way more chance of being original than that obviously added box, I personally suspect that is a 145.022-69 so not even a 321. All the charm is gone.

Nice evaluation.

It's easy to get excited by a find, as it feels like a treasure hunt mixed with a bit of a detective story. The bag of goodies adds to the allure: in it we see a DON bezel, original (assuming) crown and pushers. This bag is enticing, as you think that maybe this thing has possibilities.

The long indices and AML logo make it easy to not think of a service dial. The poor pictures can make me jump to the conclusion that there's a step dial under that glare. You've a good mind to look at that SWISS MADE. This is a good example for being methodical. I know I have missed things like this many times as I get caught up in the hunt.

At about $5800 USD, it's not cheap. There are better ones at this price.

It's still surprising that an auction cannot take better photos. They know enough to include the bag of parts but they still take photos of a dial with glare and not in focus. Makes me wonder if they are incompetent or purposely deceptive. Doesn't really matter, as the burden of due diligence still remains on the buyer.

Thanks for the enlightening thread. But please don't include me in the same sentence with Spacefruit. I'm not ready to eat at the grown-ups table. 😁

As I’ve jumped back into Speedmasters in the last couple of months I had this in my watch list but for the exact reasons you’ve outlined, I had no intention of bidding.
It’s the kind of watch/package that can get people excited, particularly if you’re new.

Hard pass for me and anywhere near that price.

There are no 861 service dials.

I also question if that is the original mid case. Case does. It appear to match caseback or original bezel.

Correct, but Omega would only use the correct service dial for the reference so that limits it quite a bit. So making the albeit big assumption that the dial was changed by Omega during a service, I’d bet dollars to donuts it’s a 321 movement in there. (They would just slap a standard 861 service dial on a 145.022-68 you see them with service dials fairly often on eBay and it’s a standard painted logo service dial)

Ah, ok, I get it now.... thanks both, I've learnt something 😀

there is no such thing as an 861 service dial.

Ummmm… What do you call a luminova dial on a 145.022-76 if not a service dial for an 861? Any damaged dial replaced durning service, that is not the original dial, is a service dial. No?

[For background for this thread, these are 321 service dials identified in MWO:]

I call it what ever is current stock not a specially made service dial.

the 321 service dials where not made untill after 1969 when the 321 went out of production. They where made in small batches as they had a limited shelf life and hence all the weird variations on them.

Receiving a new dial in service is not a service dial. The dial an 861 would review is just what ever is current production, and not a specially made service dial.

I understand what you are saying but think 90% of collectors will call a luminova dial that has replaced a tritium dial a service dial.

That's how I thought of it, that a dial replaced by Omega at service was a service dial. But as the term "service dial" is defined, I realize now that there is a technical difference between a dial specifically made as a replacement versus randomly replacing it with any dial that will fit.

Interesting stuff to me, but my wife would be rolling her eyes if she knew about this discussion.