Aristocracy of Taste v/s Democracy of Acquisitions (Reflections)

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I think the consensus on the Vogels' collection shows that they had a remarkable discernment for artistic talent. You (I think) say no, it's just that a bunch of people later happened to agree with their value judgments. But of course, people who agree with one another, then, do indeed agree with one another. "They only value the Vogels' tastes because they agree with them" is a circular argument, I think.

Hmmm...I'll have to think on that, but remember this was in the context of "validation" and that validation being proof of "taste" that they were "born with". There's no doubt that the current market agrees with the Vogel's. But for me the key is, does that in fact determine what good taste is. I'm still not convinced it does in the most fundamental way.
 
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I have no idea if this is "right" or not, and my questions are more broad than you are seeing, so not sure we will come to any conclusion here.

Well, I'm no art history scholar, but what I am describing is, I think, well accepted by most who are experts. In other words, while certain types of work may go in and out of fashion over time, the best established artists and artworks don't seem to lose status irrespective of whether or not they are currently in vogue. Their monetary values may change, but, to use another example of an "important" artist whose work I dislike, Warhol's paintings will always be considered to have been important in a historical context.

Yes, I get that. But again I'm speaking in much more fundamental terms. These works are important because someone decided they were, and others have agreed with this, not because of some other truly intrinsic reason. If the consensus shifts, then these works will fall out of favour.

I'm not sure that I would agree on the "intrinsic" part. Anyone could splash paint on a canvas, and the resulting work would be worth little or nothing. Jackson Pollock's works are worth fortunes precisely because there actually is something intrinsically superior about his precise execution. And again, I don't believe that important artists lose status when fashion changes with the wind.

I do like that you described the alternative as anarchy, surely those with money to lose would feel the same. I tend to think of it more as freedom...freedom from the tyranny of the experts and markets that they are a slave to...

We are close to agreement on this aspect of the discussion.
 
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Hmmm...I'll have to think on that, but remember this was in the context of "validation" and that validation being proof of "taste" that they were "born with". There's no doubt that the current market agrees with the Vogel's. But for me the key is, does that in fact determine what good taste is. I'm still not convinced it does in the most fundamental way.
To be clear, I was not saying that the Vogels' story means anything about genetics or being born with an appreciation for anything, and I'm not saying anyone else is arguing this either. I agree that "good taste" is a not terribly useful metric that changes with the times. I also don't think you were actually arguing that there's no such thing as aesthetic value, since that would render meaningless half of the conversation on this forum.
 
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I'm not sure that I would agree on the "intrinsic" part. Anyone could splash paint on a canvas, and the resulting work would be worth little or nothing. Jackson Pollock's works are worth fortunes precisely because there actually is something intrinsically superior about his precise execution.

But again, this is only the case because it is agreed upon by the "experts", so I'm not sure how intrinsic this distinction really is.

We are close to agreement on this aspect of the discussion.

There's hope! 😀

To be clear, I was not saying that the Vogels' story means anything about genetics or being born with an appreciation for anything, and I'm not saying anyone else is arguing this either. I agree that "good taste" is a not terribly useful metric that changes with the times. I also don't think you were actually arguing that there's no such thing as aesthetic value, since that would render meaningless half of the conversation on this forum.

While having lunch I was thinking about the best way to express my issue with the concepts being discussed, and I hope I've come up with something that will work to help you and Tony (and perhaps others) understand where I'm coming from.

I think it is widely agreed that taste is subjective on an individual basis. We all here have watches we like that others don't, and vice versa. You don't find any appeal in the PN Daytona based on what you have written here, and Tony doesn't appreciate the aesthetics of Worhol for example, so these are very subjective things. I hope we can agree on that...

So what the premise of Tony's argument seems to be to me, is that while individual tastes are subjective, collective tastes are not - they are somehow transformed into being objectively good or bad based on how experts and the market see them. I simply do not agree with this idea, and believe that even when a collective of experts or laypeople find something aesthetically pleasing, it's still subjective.

Cheers, Al
 
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This is wrong. There is no possibility that the Vogels' choices won't stand the test of time. Art history may be fluid in some respects, but important artists and works are not re-assessed after 75 or 100 (or 500) years as having been unimportant.

You're confusing personal taste with a broader and deeper appreciation of something exceptional. Of course different styles of art and architecture, etc., go in and out of fashion over of time. But that which is considered exceptionally good and/or important by broad consensus, when placed into the context of (at least) hundreds of years of production, does not somehow lose its status because of transitory fashion.

and I think you are confusing my comments with 'appreciation and the attribution of importance' and the concept of what is 'good taste' and whether 'good taste' actually exists

There is no doubt that there is (current) consensus on what constitutes important things, whether that be art, architecture or horology.

However, 'taste' is an entirely different concept altogether and has nothing to do with quality, desirability or importance.
Taste is neither good nor bad, it just 'is'
 
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Figured I would add Jack's quote from the podcast, since in my view it's quite different than how the OP framed it:


On the advent of precision mass production:
"…the whole idea that you can have a beautifully designed object that is affordable, democratic and available to anyone who wants it, at that point you still have an aristocracy of taste but you have a democracy of acquisition, which is a wonderful, wonderful thing to have..."

In this context, I view democracy of acquisition as "affordable luxury" and not in relation to "value retention" as originally posed.

As such, I dont view these as two opposing schools of thought, as I view value retention as a wholly separate concept to cost of acquisition.
 
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So what the premise of Tony's argument seems to be to me, is that while individual tastes are subjective, collective tastes are not - they are somehow transformed into being objectively good or bad based on how experts and the market see them. I simply do not agree with this idea, and believe that even when a collective of experts or laypeople find something aesthetically pleasing, it's still subjective.

One can, of course, think of art, or watches, or cars, etc., in different ways. It is possible to be attracted to something that few others might like, or that is not considered to be "important" by expert consensus. It is also possible to dislike something that is widely considered to be attractive, or does have importance within the genre.

A decorative work may be aesthetically pleasing to a very high percentage of those who view it, but simultaneously be technically unimpressive and unimportant.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that people should be free to enjoy whatever forms of artistic expression appeal to them, and not be pressured into limited choices by "experts". But while our disagreements are likely related, at least in part, to semantics, I would say that collective tastes do often have deep meanings. Take rap music as an example, a genre that a fairly large percentage of the populations despises. It's not my cup of tea, either, but I nevertheless understand that it is an extremely important form of artistic expression, and that its popularity is far more about a shared expression of grievances, rather than than creating and enjoying "attractive" art.

Because of your expertise, you are able to explain why a particular movement is extraordinary, and what separates it from other, similar movements. Fine Art experts can, of course, do the same thing. My previous Pollock example would serve well.

Now, you may object on the basis that you can explain, and measure in technical terms why a particular escapement (or whatever) is superior. But the difference, in this context, between art (and perhaps especially music) and machines, is actually quite fine. Experts in art and music can often explain in great detail what made the work of certain artists and musicians so extraordinary, and why they are, or should be considered historically important.

Take some of the greatest artists and musicians: Leonardo da Vinci, Rembrandt, Mozart, and Beethoven. Do you imagine that the virtual unanimous agreement about their greatness, over hundreds of years and countless generations of viewers, listeners and experts, should somehow be treated with suspicion because there is necessarily some subjectivity involved? Should the opinions of those in the minority, who may prefer listen to heavy metal music, and think that classical music "sucks", carry equal weight, or erode anyone's confidence in the status quo understanding of Mozart?

Are you are willing to accept that there are, in fact, objectively great artists, such as those mentioned above? And if so, then at what point, to your mind, do such designations become suspect?
 
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However, 'taste' is an entirely different concept altogether and has nothing to do with quality, desirability or importance.

The Vogels story completely contradicts that claim. Their simple tastes were quite obviously connected very closely to quality, desirability, and, ultimately, importance.
 
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Take some of the greatest artists and musicians: Leonardo da Vinci, Rembrandt, Mozart, and Beethoven. Do you imagine that the virtual unanimous agreement about their greatness, over hundreds of years and countless generations of viewers, listeners and experts, should somehow be treated with suspicion because there is necessarily some subjectivity involved? Should the opinions of those in the minority, who may prefer listen to heavy metal music, and think that classical music "sucks", carry equal weight, or erode anyone's confidence in the status quo understanding of Mozart?

I'm not sure where the idea of "suspicion" comes into this. It is not a word I have used or even thought of in this discussion, so this is an introduction of an argument that is not mine - effectively a straw man.

The idea I'm saying is very straightforward - individual subjective likes and dislikes do not become objective just because many people agree. I don't believe anyone was born with good taste in music, art, or pretty much anything else.

Are you are willing to accept that there are, in fact, objectively great artists, such as those mentioned above? And if so, then at what point, to your mind, do such designations become suspect?

Objectively great in what way? Your post seems to have shifted away from aesthetics (taste) and onto the term you call "importance", so I'm not sure what you are specifically asking me about. Certainly many artists are important in culture, important in terms of money paid for their works, etc. But this is not necessarily tied to skill, or as you have pointed out aesthetics.

If you mean highly skilled in reproducing an image from nature, or painting an accurate portrait of a person, then yes these artists are certainly objectively better at painting compared to a stick man drawing I would make. But when it comes to splashes of paint on a canvas, this distinction is far less clear, regardless of what experts might say. There is no objective standard of comparison that helps us define what splashes of paint on canvass are "supposed" to look like, as there is in an artist who is reproducing the most accurate image they can from nature. So if Pollocks splashes are more "precise" as you stated, then what is the objective standard that they are being compared to, in order to reach that conclusion?

By the way, I will note that often this type of very accurate artist is not well received by the cognoscenti - an example would be someone like Robert Bateman. His wildlife paintings are nearly photographic in nature, and require great skill, but this is somehow seen by many art critics as not real "art"...

Artists can be very well received for one genre of their work, but not for others. For example Lawren Harris' works from the 1930's are widely considered to be some of the best of that genre and of his contemporaries (Group of Seven), but his later abstract works from the 1960's, while just as skilled, are not nearly as well received or valued. Again, the subjective nature of this is what's key.
 
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Some people have a taste for bad taste. They, & everyone else, knows the thing they enjoy is in bad taste, but they like it anyway. Others who don't really like it, can see the value.

Probably most common in cartoons & comics, but seen in other media from time to time.
 
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The idea I'm saying is very straightforward - individual subjective likes and dislikes do not become objective just because many people agree

So your answer, then, is that you do not believe that there are any "great" artists, is that correct? Or are you suggesting that if there is enough agreement, some may, in a sense, be widely considered to have been great, but that there is still no objective proof of greatness?

Your post seems to have shifted away from aesthetics (taste) and onto the term you call "importance"...

This may be the primary complication of the discussion. I never suggested that, to circle back to the Vogels, they had outstanding taste in the sense that most would agree that the art which they collected was aesthetically beautiful in a decorative sense. They honed in on art that was better than most being produced at the time in NYC in a more fundamental sense. It turned out that a remarkable percentage would come to be respected and understood by most experts, including dealers, collectors and major galleries, to be important works by important artists.

So, their "taste" in art – after all, they were simply collecting what they liked and could afford – proved to be remarkably good in terms of identifying works and artists which ultimately commanded high commercial and historical value (or importance).

But when it comes to splashes of paint on a canvas, this distinction is far less clear, regardless of what experts might say. There is no objective standard of comparison that helps us define what splashes of paint on canvass are "supposed" to look like, as there is in an artist who is reproducing the most accurate image they can from nature. So if Pollocks splashes are more "precise" as you stated, then what is the objective standard that they are being compared to, in order to reach that conclusion?

It is true that objective standards are generally not applied to Fine Art. But to use just one example, George Stubbs, considered to be one of, if not the greatest equine artist to ever to lift a brush, established an interest in anatomy after having worked as an illustrator for a midwifery publication, and subsequently spent 18 months carefully dissecting horses and recording his anatomical findings in an illustrated publication entitled, The Anatomy of the Horse: including a particular description of the bones, cartilages, muscles, fascias, ligaments, nerves, arteries, veins, and glands.

It is, i would say, objectively clear that his greatness as a painter of horses was due in no small part to those extraordinary studies, as his understanding of the animals' skeletal structure and muscles allowed him to create much more naturalistic representations than any of his predecessors. Here's one of his most famous works, a horse called Whistlejacket, painted in 1762:

Whistlejacket.jpg

With regard to Pollock, and other "great" abstract (or abstract expressionist) artists, it would be a very long, and complicated tangent. But I will say (or admit) that both Pollock and the Vogels benefitted from nearly perfect timing, as they both began their journeys at a time during which big changes were occurring the art market, mass media, and broader society.
 
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So your answer, then, is that you do not believe that there are any "great" artists, is that correct? Or are you suggesting that if there is enough agreement, some may, in a sense, be widely considered to have been great, but that there is still no objective proof of greatness?

I've already answered that. In that answer I asked the question "Great in what way?"

You haven't answered, so hard for me to expand when I still really don't know what you are asking me. Great in terms of sales? Great in terms of mass popularity? Those things can be objectively measured in dollars. What can't be in my view is "objective aesthetic greatness" because people see things differently - down to taste. There can be a consensus certainly, but I disagree that is objective.

De gustibus non est disputandum


This may be the primary complication of the discussion. I never suggested that, to circle back to the Vogels, they had outstanding taste in the sense that most would agree that the art which they collected was aesthetically beautiful in a decorative sense. They honed in on art that was better than most being produced at the time in NYC in a more fundamental sense. It turned out that a remarkable percentage would come to be respected and understood by most experts, including dealers, collectors and major galleries, to be important works by important artists.

Well, you keep saying the word important, so it must be...for lack of a better word...important to your point. You have already said works can be important, and not that aesthetically pleasing.

So, their "taste" in art – after all, they were simply collecting what they liked and could afford – proved to be remarkably good in terms of identifying works and artists which ultimately commanded high commercial and historical value (or importance).

Exactly!

It is true that objective standards are generally not applied to Fine Art.

Again, exactly.

With regard to Pollock, and other "great" abstract (or abstract expressionist) artists, it would be a very long, and complicated tangent. But I will say (or admit) that both Pollock and the Vogels benefitted from nearly perfect timing, as they both began their journeys at a time during which big changes were occurring the art market, mass media, and broader society.

To me, this is a long way of saying that they were both "lucky" to be in the right place at the right time.
 
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I've already answered that. In that answer I asked the question "Great in what way?"

Great in that their work is widely considered, including by experts, to have been truly extraordinary in terms of beauty, depth, importance (i.e. a breakthrough in style, etc.), or any combination of those.

To me, this is a long way of saying that they were both "lucky" to be in the right place at the right time.

Luck played a role, but certainly doesn't tell the whole story.
 
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Figured I would add Jack's quote from the podcast, since in my view it's quite different than how the OP framed it:


On the advent of precision mass production:
"…the whole idea that you can have a beautifully designed object that is affordable, democratic and available to anyone who wants it, at that point you still have an aristocracy of taste but you have a democracy of acquisition, which is a wonderful, wonderful thing to have..."

In this context, I view democracy of acquisition as "affordable luxury" and not in relation to "value retention" as originally posed.

As such, I dont view these as two opposing schools of thought, as I view value retention as a wholly separate concept to cost of acquisition.
Confluence alert: Andy Warhol made a similar point when he was talking about his soup cans and other celebrations of mass-produced items. He noted that everyone in America could buy a bottle of Coca-Cola. No amount of money can get you a more luxurious variety of Coke, so whether you're a bum or the President, everyone is drinking the same thing.
 
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I tend to think of it more as freedom...freedom from the tyranny of the experts and markets that they are a slave to...

Oh when it comes to watch collecting in this internet age I couldn't agree with you more.
 
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@Archer , do aesthetics play any part in your value judgments of a watch? I mean, do you have a preference for one watch over another that's not based on market demand, technical performance, etc.?
 
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Where does simply buying what you like and what you can sneak past your wife fit into this spectrum?

that’s insurgency and guerilla warfare
 
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@Archer , do aesthetics play any part in your value judgments of a watch? I mean, do you have a preference for one watch over another that's not based on market demand, technical performance, etc.?

Yes, of course. This is why I always tell people to buy what they like, and I certainly take my own advice. I don’t buy watches that I don’t like.

But not sure how this is relevant, as these are my own aesthetic preferences, and are completely subjective...to me. If they coincide with the market is irrelevant to me, personally.
 
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Of course the relationship of the two (value and taste) is not always taut,

Warhol and Lichtenstein come to mind.
 
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Great in that their work is widely considered, including by experts, to have been truly extraordinary in terms of beauty, depth, importance (i.e. a breakthrough in style, etc.), or any combination of those.

If you put “beauty” in there, then I believe this is now subjective. Again just because it is widely agreed upon doesn’t make it objective.

Luck played a role, but certainly doesn't tell the whole story.

These people were your proof of people being born with good taste. You explained that after they took painting classes, they decided to focus on collecting instead.

So you appear to be discounting entirely their time in the painting class, correct?