Forums Latest Members

Anyone have a historical watch?

  1. Seiji Feb 15, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    Imperial Japanese Navy Longines Weems 4356 and 5350 Tracking Table.
    2023-04-20_07-41-16.jpg
     
    Edited Apr 20, 2023
    Perdurabo, tapaptpat, Mark020 and 2 others like this.
  2. Seiji Feb 18, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    Omegafanman likes this.
  3. Seiji Feb 19, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
     
    Omegafanman likes this.
  4. Omegafanman Feb 19, 2023

    Posts
    4,564
    Likes
    17,115
    A bit of thread drift but I was chatting to a vet last week who was very sad about some of the current world conflict situations (he was a frontline medic so has seen too much of the sharp end and its results). His view is for a lot of mostly very young men wars are very much a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and not a matter of choice. All very tragic and a shame in the modern day we still wage them.
     
    JohnLy and Seiji like this.
  5. Seiji Feb 19, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    Today was a successful day. I think I have enough. Black Weems, A7, and SwissAir are not going to be a part of this small group.

    AD1E764E-83CE-4D3C-A92E-32326C5CFD0A.jpeg 0CA81F04-FE70-455F-8122-AED8536F4DF8.jpeg
    EC00A4D1-7125-46D5-BC9E-8895829EB64E.jpeg
     
    Edited Feb 21, 2023
  6. Seiji Feb 22, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    It is usually bad luck to mention anything about "In Coming". But I think this will be okay.

    [​IMG]
    The Japanese words are "bun chou kyu" which means "May your military fortunes be long lasting" (I hope you do well in battle and come back alive). Note: Japanese was written right to left during this era so the order of the kanji is reversed from modern Japanese.
    upload_2023-2-22_13-27-24.png

    It looks like a hachimaki and it may well be one. And there is a possibility it is a pilot's hachimaki. A remote possibility. It's the right width, but the straps at the ends don't make sense to me as a hachimaki. Since there is no rules for how to make a hachimaki, it maybe that the mother made it so it would not come off.

    This is not a "Kamikaze" hachimaki. No one wants a kamikaze pilot to return safely (unfortunately for the boy).
    It is 4.5 inches wide by 35 inches long.
    Belts were typically 6 inches or more wide and 36 to 48 inches long.
    Average hachimaki is 3.5 inches wide and 37 inches long.
    This is in between which makes it hard to say for sure it is a belt or headband. I think more likely belt for very small person.
    upload_2023-2-22_13-16-56.png

    It is definitely a senninbari which was often the work of 1000 women who sewed a knot into a cloth that was the hopes and wishes for the soldier to return safely from battle. Most senninbari are wide and very big but this one appears to be a narrow and long and some were made as headbands, but until I see it in person, I would say this is still a guess. (And sewing machines were available in Japan as early as 1921).
    [​IMG]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senninbari

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    https://m1pencil.wordpress.com/2010/10/16/senninbari-thousand-stitch-belt/

    We see recently many items with "bun chou kyu" being returned back to the original families.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Edited Feb 22, 2023
    noelekal, Mark020 and Omegafanman like this.
  7. tapaptpat Feb 23, 2023

    Posts
    891
    Likes
    1,656
    Hi Seiji,
    Let me start by saying thanks again for your industrious coalition and documentation.
    I am wondering as to the order of the watches shown above. As an uneducated guess:
    Are the displayed in serial order?

    Top row
    1: Black Weems.
    2: One of the Japanese Navy
    3: ?
    4: ?
    2nd row
    5: ?

    Also I am wondering, what is your thinking on how they grouped. Why some are to be included so on.

    Many thanks again
    P
     
  8. Seiji Feb 23, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    Hello P

    Maybe this will help. It is always a great pleasure of mine to hear back any interest in my often long meanderings.

    Thank you

    S.

    ============================================

    This is an A7
    upload_2023-2-23_7-10-35.png

    This is a Swiss Air
    upload_2023-2-23_7-11-55.png

    This is a Stop Seconde
    upload_2023-2-23_7-15-12.png

    The last known IJN to be auctioned at a major auction house I believe.
    Since there are only 18 of these and they almost never trade hands. Offers below $45K have been refused.
    upload_2023-2-23_7-17-41.png

    upload_2023-2-23_7-18-24.png

    The 24 Hour Weems

    upload_2023-2-23_7-19-52.png

    The Red and Black 24 Hour Weems
    upload_2023-2-23_7-23-43.png

    The Slide Rule Weems Siderograph
    [​IMG]
    upload_2023-2-23_7-21-14.png

    The Black Weems ($100-150K?)
    upload_2023-2-23_8-35-31.png
    25087B09-F4E5-48D7-8191-C410A5D6AC7D.jpeg

    The Dual Time Zone Weems (Turkish Weems I have seen in person two in Weems 4356 cases)

    upload_2023-2-23_7-49-16.png
    It was one of these movements put into a Weems wristwatch case. Have no idea the price range.

    upload_2023-2-23_7-31-12.png

    Two prototypes (DP raises the price every time you ask him)
    upload_2023-2-23_7-32-24.png
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    And a Lindbergh
    upload_2023-2-23_7-38-32.png



    A heart stopping Lindbergh
    upload_2023-2-23_7-37-42.png

    And Finally The Two Star version of the Sidereal Times (there are No Star, One Star, and Two Star). There are less of these than the normal 4356. Typically $30K.
    upload_2023-2-23_7-53-51.png
    [​IMG]
    No Star
    upload_2023-2-23_8-32-28.png

    One Star
    upload_2023-2-23_8-34-13.png
     
    Edited Mar 8, 2023
    Omegafanman likes this.
  9. Seiji Feb 23, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    First Generation: Weems with small inner dial. Note pin set no guards
    upload_2023-2-23_8-38-1.png

    Second Generation: Note pin set with guards.
    upload_2023-2-23_8-42-3.png

    Third Generation: Transitional knob set no guards.
    upload_2023-2-23_8-46-3.png

    upload_2023-2-23_8-45-17.png

    Last versions: Weems with big inner dial. Note knob set.
    upload_2023-2-23_8-39-22.png

    For more info Andy Tolley's website is really great reading on Weems and Lindbergh watches.

    https://flightbirds.net/
     
    Omegafanman, noelekal and tapaptpat like this.
  10. Seiji Feb 27, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    This is an amazing example of a senninbari . It is the size of a hachimaki, but most likely it was worn around the waist instead of under the helmet. I counted 1000 knots in neat rows of 10 knots x 100 columns.

    4FD91AEE-FA3B-4150-AD3D-9837E1910F6E.jpeg 32BC38EF-CB29-4FA8-A7DC-656487F43A09.jpeg
     
    Edited Feb 27, 2023
  11. Seiji Mar 3, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    It is very difficult to find photos of Sino-Japan and WW2 photos of pilots with wrist watches. Most wristwatches when visible are small watches.

    Army Pilots
    86779A8A-4936-491D-BB45-F4007ED3D555.jpeg C60832B6-A6FB-4735-8A3C-FC6F4CA16C40.jpeg

    Navy Pilots
    upload_2023-3-4_17-5-1.png
    upload_2023-3-4_17-2-46.png
    Most likely later in the Pacific War as Swiss watches were not being imported, a watch like this was typical Navy issue.
    [​IMG]

    Navy Junior Officer
    35d8cdca732aa155c91019fc401b6390.jpg


    We know that 10,000 Sekosha Tensoku is a likely number. Yukio Seki is the most famous pilot clearly wearing one.

    E2BE67B1-B00B-4679-A612-D5101D6A54C9.jpeg

    Here is another Tensoku
    2f39e7c2f7c43933946faa0f69d9ceed.jpg

    Not sure what this is. Looks much bigger than the watch band. If the very bottom photo is a Longines, this should also be one. Note the uniform for the IJN pilot is different style than Yukio Seki, look at the left sleeve for both of the below photos.
    img_45260c2ab97715614aee7e55af0b59ec254655[1].jpg
    upload_2023-3-4_16-36-31.png
    Used from 1931 to 1942
    [​IMG]

    upload_2023-3-3_11-46-43.png
    Another more famous fighter with similar sleeve markings.
    Hiroyoshi Nishizawa
    upload_2023-3-3_10-42-23.png
    nish_2_orig.jpg

    Below is Interesting:
    I am not certain, this photo could predate the Seikosha, it is from Sino-Japanese War period and this was a typical pose of the IJN pilots sitting in a folding chair. He is wearing a big pilot watch, it looks like a Weems.
    The lugs for Weems are shorter and bigger than on Seikosha. Dial are also white on Longines. This photo it is not possible to determine the dial color in my opinion.

    A6710B4A-3639-4EE1-B970-A24CBCC10870.jpeg

    Insignia style looks like it is earlier than the later more international style for the navy see way below posts.
    And Seki has the later insignias.
    [​IMG]
     
    Edited Mar 4, 2023
    tapaptpat, Omegafanman and noelekal like this.
  12. Seiji Mar 3, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    upload_2023-3-3_9-41-20.png

    Big Pilot Watch. Later uniforms. You can see the Lt. ranks on the left sleeves.
    1944 is pretty late for Longines unless it is a survivor from earlier in the war.
    I would guess it is a Seikosha.

    upload_2023-3-3_10-46-11.png
    upload_2023-3-3_9-41-9.png

    upload_2023-3-3_9-44-4.png
     
    Edited Mar 3, 2023
    tapaptpat and noelekal like this.
  13. Seiji Mar 3, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    2023-03-03_08-46-01.jpg

    There were a couple variations.
    Seikosha Type 93
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    And Imperial Navy Seikosha (Longines) like the one Hazono is wore.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    This is 793
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Edited Mar 3, 2023
    tapaptpat, noelekal and Omegafanman like this.
  14. Seiji Mar 3, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    Edited Mar 3, 2023
    tapaptpat, noelekal and Omegafanman like this.
  15. noelekal Home For Wayward Watches Mar 3, 2023

    Posts
    5,475
    Likes
    38,151
    Seiji, you're digging deep for us here and for that we are grateful.
     
    tapaptpat and Seiji like this.
  16. Seiji Mar 3, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    Thank you for your support! Yes, I am very curious myself and I think the odds are good that we may have found pictures that are very likely the Longines Weems. I haven't found either a clear picture or a clear shot of the insignia that would absolutely indicate the time frame to eliminate the Seikosha. Just need to keep looking.

    I believe the below photos implies that it could have happened. The uniforms are the same type (Sino-Japanese War).

    upload_2023-3-3_11-51-24.png

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Seiji Mar 3, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    This is where it gets a little interesting.

    Did "The Devil of Rabaul" Hiroyoshi Nishizawa have a Longines Imperial Japanese Navy Weems?

    [​IMG]

    @Andy_timeman @Omegafanman @noelekal
     
    Edited Mar 3, 2023
  18. Seiji Mar 3, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    This dates the flying suit worn by The Devil of Rabaul to the Sino-Japanese war period.
    And he didn't have facial hair until near 1942.
    upload_2023-3-3_14-44-54.png upload_2023-3-3_14-45-7.png

    This is also cataloged the same way, but this is clearly a cost down summer suit.
    It has less buttons and has the simpler sleeve and pants legs to make it quicker
    to manufacture. I believe this to have come after 1942.

    With the different ranking systems used and the combination of buttons or no buttons
    summer suits, we can look at the pictures and tell roughly when the pilot's picture was taken.

    upload_2023-3-3_14-53-55.png

    Yukio Seki's summer suit no longer has the cuff buttons. You should still see
    a top botton on the cuff if there were any even with the Seikosha covering up
    the bottom button. It is not possible to cover up both buttons with one watch.

    [​IMG]
     
    Edited Mar 3, 2023
    tapaptpat, Omegafanman and noelekal like this.
  19. Seiji Mar 3, 2023

    Posts
    1,279
    Likes
    2,694
    Still not proven with a poor image of Nishizawa's  西沢広義 watch, but perhaps the Longines IJN Weems were initially intended for Sino-Japanese War.

    upload_2023-3-3_17-3-4.png

    The Tainan Air Group (台南海軍航空隊, Tainan Kaigun Kōkūtai) was a fighter aircraft and airbase garrison unit of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) during the Pacific campaign of World War II. The flying portion of the unit was heavily involved in many of the major campaigns and battles of the first year of the war. The exploits of the unit were widely publicized in the Japanese media at the time, at least in part because the unit spawned more aces than any other fighter unit in the IJN.[1] Several of the unit's aces were among the IJN's top scorers, and included Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, Saburō Sakai, Junichi Sasai, Watari Handa, Masaaki Shimakawa, and Toshio Ōta.

    The unit was formed at Tainan, Taiwan (then part of the Empire of Japan) on October 1, 1941 as part of the 23rd Air Flotilla. The unit's first commander was Captain Hiroshi Higuchi, who was relieved by Commander Masahisa Saito on 4 October 1941. Most of the unit's original pilots were veterans of aerial combat in the Second Sino-Japanese War. Just before the outbreak of war with the Allied powers, the unit consisted of 45 A6M Zero and 12 Type 96 fighter aircraft.
     
    Edited Mar 4, 2023
    Omegafanman and noelekal like this.
  20. Omegafanman Mar 4, 2023

    Posts
    4,564
    Likes
    17,115
     
    Seiji likes this.