Advice appreciated: new member contacted me for sale

FreelanceWriter · Aug 17, 2020

Marsimaxam
I don’t believe the individual can do anything with just your account information. Every time you write a check all your account information is there for anyone to see.

I don't think this is necessarily true. The difference is that when you choose to write a check, the risk is much lower, simply because it's someone you trust enough to provide that info in the first place. There's not much someone can do with no other info besides your checking account number, but in combination with other info that someone with criminal intentions could conceivably find out about your identity, the risk is much higher. Even with nothing but your account number, someone could print fraudulent checks; and with your actual check (in other situations besides the OP's), it can be washed and fraudulently reused.

Bank wires are only safe if your bank confirms that the funds can no longer be reversed for any reason or by any mechanism. I believe they may sometimes post to your account before that point.

ConElPueblo · Aug 17, 2020

FreelanceWriter
.

Bank wires are only safe if your bank confirms that the funds can no longer be reversed for any reason or by any mechanism. I believe they may sometimes post to your account before that point.

What reason or mechanism should that be?

Has anyone here had experience with this?

FreelanceWriter · Aug 17, 2020

ConElPueblo
What reason or mechanism should that be?

I should have said "I don't know that bank wires are 100% safe until...". I don't rely on them without the added security layer of first confirming with my bank by phone.

Joe_A · Aug 17, 2020

It's not too daunting a task to Google "Are bank wire transfers ever reversible?"

Here is the first article that came up for me that suggests that the window is either non-existent or very short:

https://budgeting.thenest.com/time-frame-reversing-wire-transfer-33881.html

There are many articles that essentially say the same thing.

In essence, "no," once the receiving bank gets the funds.

I've used wire transfers for many years and have always understood that they were not reversible, but it's always a good idea to recheck one's understandings from time to time.

Edit: I've used Transferwise recently and found that the charges were much lower than bank wire charges even when one has a preferred status with a bank.

thelinendial · Aug 17, 2020

ConElPueblo
What reason or mechanism should that be?

Has anyone here had experience with this?

Archer
Yes - when I get a wire in, it actually says "WIRE" in the description. If it says anything different you need to contact your bank and confirm it was a wire, and not some other form of deposit.

I have sent many wires to suppliers in Europe for watch parts, bulk movement and case purchases, etc. My bank has always warned me that they cannot be reversed, so all the information needs to be done right.

Yes, sound advice. The bank will not protect you if it is not an actual wire. The scam I read involved someone hiring a delivery person to pick-up the watch.

The OP seller saw a transaction deposit on his bank account and released the watch to the pick-up person. Only later, to realize later it was not a wire, but a 3rd party deposit using a bounced cheque. He never got his all his money back.

kkt · Aug 17, 2020

STANDY
Open a savings only account and get him to deposit the money there.
Another bank to the one you use is even better.
Once money is in withdraw it Leaving $1 in and your good to go.

Safe banking 👍

Ask the bank what the service charge is for opening then rapidly closing an account.

Evitzee · Aug 17, 2020

A transfer made by the ACH (Automated Clearing House) system in the US looks like a wire but it is different. There is a time period, I believe it is midnight of the day of sending, where it can be cancelled. One of the scams is for someone to agree to buy a watch and then he sends the ACH payment to the seller's bank and asks him to immediately send the watch that day. Seller sends the watch, tells the buyer it is on its way, and the buyer then cancels the ACH payment. You need to know which kind of payment is deposited, if it is a true wire transfer it can't be recalled for all intents and purposes. If it is unclear or marked ACH call your bank and find out what kind of deposit it is, there may be a time period when it is not totally cleared. Fortunately most people don't even know about the ACH system so they go to the bank and send a true wire payment, so the receiver is good, the money is his as soon as it hits his account.

These days most banks don't want to open and close special accounts for these kinds of payment purposes, especially if foreign agents are involved. It creates paperwork and potential scrutiny from Homeland Security under the Patriot Act. Many eyes are on banking activities now for subversive and illegal activities. Selling or buying a watch isn't illegal, but you don't want the government nosing around about it.

Renton · Aug 17, 2020

Evitzee
A transfer made by the ACH (Automated Clearing House) system in the US looks like a wire but it is different. There is a time period, I believe it is midnight of the day of sending, where it can be cancelled. One of the scams is for someone to agree to buy a watch and then he sends the ACH payment to the seller's bank and asks him to immediately send the watch that day. Seller sends the watch, tells the buyer it is on its way, and the buyer then cancels the ACH payment. You need to know which kind of payment is deposited, if it is a true wire transfer it can't be recalled for all intents and purposes. If it is unclear or marked ACH call your bank and find out what kind of deposit it is, there may be a time period when it is not totally cleared. Fortunately most people don't even know about the ACH system so they go to the bank and sends a true wire payment, so the receiver is good, the money is his.

Yup. Thanks for the advise. I’m based in Singapore so it’s slightly different I think but nonetheless, one should always check that the wire is confirmed in with the bank and not ‘reversible’ or ‘cancellable’

STANDY · Aug 17, 2020

kkt
Ask the bank what the service charge is for opening then rapidly closing an account.

But your not closing it, leave a few dollars in it.
Have had one of these accounts for over 10 years 😉
I have $16.22 in savings. Also it’s a passbook with no cards or internet banking....

Chaz Goldenrod · Aug 18, 2020

Shabbaz
I thought banktransfer is the safest way for the seller to sell his watch because the buyer can not get his money back (with paypal he can). I've sold many watches this way. Also to new members. Never had any problems. But maybe I'm naive.

slwoodster · Aug 18, 2020

If they're on ebay, they will take paypal. If they have a bank in the US, they can also pay via zelle. If the amt is too large, they can do it over several payments.

rootbeer7 · Aug 18, 2020

Reading through, there is a lot of good advice.
Here’s my take.
Giving out bank details to a potential seller isn’t unsafe in itself. You are sending the item and therefore will have his/her address. You could use a work address as tracking point when you send and therefore seller won’t have bank details and the address to cause mischief with. (This is what I do).
In the UK, once funds have been deposited and are listed as available on the banking app or when you visit the bank, they can’t be returned unless an official request is made by sender for a reason such as fraud. Reversals cannot happen with your knowledge.
Prior to this, I always use google to try and glean info on buyer/seller. On the occasion I have had to be a little nervous, WhatsApp video or FaceTime are particularly useful.
This has stood me well and so far I haven’t suffered any loss.
I hope this helps and good luck.

Syrte · Aug 18, 2020

What used to be called Paypal « friends and family » ie now «send money to a trusted person » is also known to be non reversible. Now they’re charging costs (in my experience about 4 euros per transaction but perhaps it’s a percentage? plus currency exchange commissions) to the person sending the money.

Functions like a wire transfer and you only have an email address to provide. You could always double check with that it still is non reversible.
I don’t know if it works with big amounts, my account once got frozen because a relative tried to send me 2000 euros with it, but that could easily be verified with Paypal.

steelfish · Aug 18, 2020

Syrte
What used to be called Paypal « friends and family » ie now «send money to a trusted person » is also known to be non reversible. Now they’re charging costs (in my experience about 4 euros per transaction but perhaps it’s a percentage? plus currency exchange commissions) to the person sending the money.

Functions like a wire transfer and you only have an email address to provide. You could always double check with that it still is non reversible.
I don’t know if it works with big amounts, my account once got frozen because a relative tried to send me 2000 euros with it, but that could easily be verified with Paypal.

Is that absolutely correct? I see from some other forums that payments haVe been reversed despite being made through F&F. The difference is that the ‘buyer’ claims their account was hacked or their funding card stolen. Slightly different MO from a non F&F transaction where it seems the most prevalent fraud is ‘I didn’t sign for my parcel or seller sent a box of rocks’. But it’s been recorded a few times that a F&F transaction was reversed.

Clearly F&F transactions cut down the number of potential rip off avenues, but there’s still a big risk.

Syrte · Aug 18, 2020

I never realized that. Thanks for the info.
Then it means there is no way to eliminate the risk for criminal activity on the web— if you want to be completely safe you should not transact on a high value item on the internet with a completely unknown person.
That would be my conclusion.
My first sale through the forum was to a relative newbie, I had no problem- and I know others had the same.

Stripey · Aug 18, 2020

I appreciate this appears to be US focused, but given the UK has popped up, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the possibility arising out of the fact that in the UK that your bank is obliged to freeze your account if it notices suspicious activity and report it to the NCA. It can unfreeze it if it doesn't hear back in seven days. But in the meantime, it is not allowed to tip you off and so it will not communicate with you. Suspicious activity could well be receiving an unusual amount of money from an unusual source. That's the only risk I could imagine from a UK standpoint.

steelfish · Aug 18, 2020

Yeah it’s incredibly frustrating. I think it’s important to note to not only buy the seller, but buy the buyer as well. I’m possibly jaded by my own experience with PayPal. Here was my last personal experience with Paypal a couple of years back. Not an Uber expensive watch thankfully, but still a bunch of cash I could ill afford to lose at the time:

- sold some alloy wheels for £600 on a car forum’s classified board
- initially stated balance transfer only but stupidly I ended up accepting Paypal at buyer’s request
- Paypal emailed me to say all good OK to ship ‘Promptly’. Balance showed in my account
- I went to DHL and shipped at my cost, promptly
- got back from DHL and Paypal then sent another email to say don’t ship, account is suspected fraudulent. This was a couple of hours after the email instructing me to send promptly
- I was less than impressed when Paypal said it was my issue for shipping

NB: I have to say I did get the money back in the end, but not through Paypal. Social media and LinkedIn sleuthing revealed the buyer’s full name and home address, LinkedIN got me his work position and address, plus his bosses details. A quick email outlining what was going on, resulted in a direct payment. I was very lucky.

YY77 · Aug 18, 2020

I don't really understand the differences in this thread, is a bank transfer the same as a wire tranfer?

I've heard stories of people transferring funds to a bank account but mistyped 1 number and the bank wasn't able to reverse the transaction so one had to request politely the person whom got the money wrongly whether he/she would be so kind to transfer it back.

This seems to me if I would give my IBAN and money is transferred to my account it's irreversible.

Rman · Aug 18, 2020

I have reversed a wire before because a single number was off. I’m not sure how my bank extracted it but my guess is they contacted the receiving bank, that bank talked to the client and they acknowledged that the money wasn’t theirs.
This took several days so my impression is that reversing a wire would require the account holder’s consent.

If you want to be 100% safe accept the transfer into a holding account as outlined by several members above and transfer from there into your personal account. This not only removes the possible of a retracted transfer, it protects you by sharing banking details of an account with little funds in it.

I will be doing this from now on with my watch sales.

M'Bob · Aug 18, 2020

Scarecrow Boat
Quote the whole thing...

He has to trust it. We are a bunch of people behind a computer and can tell him it’s safe all day long, but in the end he has to trust it (IE feeling safe through feedback) and there is nothing wrong with that.

I’m sorry but your point is eluding me.

There has been nothing I’ve read in this thread that suggests there’s any significant tangible risk to doing a wire transfer. So to say in the end, the individual still has to trust in it I would think would be implicit. In the face of overwhelming evidence in one direction, if a person chooses to ignore that and be distrustful, it speaks much more about them than the construct being discussed, no?

Advice appreciated: new member contacted me for sale

FreelanceWriter

ConElPueblo

FreelanceWriter

Joe_A

thelinendial

kkt

Evitzee

Renton

STANDY

Chaz Goldenrod

slwoodster

rootbeer7

Syrte

steelfish

Syrte

Stripey

steelfish

YY77

Rman

M'Bob

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