A notable change at Moonwatch Only

[padders]

eugeneandresson

Is nobody else curious as to what ‘FID’ means?

Well the Latin stem derivation means ‘faithful’ as in fidelity, bona fide, infidel, Fidei Defensor.

 

[Vintagewtchzilla]

so on the other side what is your expectation from such a service ?

you have 2 shippings (potential risk of loss or damage)
you have disassembling and assembling (high risk of damage)

in normal case you get your watch back it was rated as expected .... you paid amount XXX for it. do you think you will get the value of the watch plus minimum amount XXX for it ?

 

[pdxleaf]

Vintagewtchzilla

so on the other side what is your expectation from such a service ?

you have 2 shippings (potential risk of loss or damage)
you have disassembling and assembling (high risk of damage)

in normal case you get your watch back it was rated as expected .... you paid amount XXX for it. do you think you will get the value of the watch plus minimum amount XXX for it ?

Theses questions would also apply to Omega's COA.

I thought MWO was not going to disassemble, which Omega does for the COA? Regardless, the shipping risks remain for both, as you noted.

These services seem to benefit a potential buyer more. If you no intention of selling then it doesn't matter because you like your watch regardless of their opinion, which I believe is what you are saying. If people stop snatching up pretty much everything regardless of condition, then an appraisal might be more useful and more in demand. I think the evaluation will give more comfort to buyers with less experience and knowledge. That may be their target audience as opposed to members of the forum, i.e. to expand the market.

Wonder how many people have used the COA? Doesn't seem like many only because the COA is not mentioned much.

 

[Archer]

lillatroll

I believe they are perfectly decent chaps and would not over charge but there is potentially a conflict of interest here.

No "potential" here in my view. If you are a grading service that is grading the watch you are now selling, there is without a doubt a conflict of interest.

 

[wsfarrell]

djmusicman

I just can't stand seeing: PRICE: On request.

Times 1,000. This is often a ploy to engage you in a negotiation conversation. "If I can get you on the phone, I can sell you anything." The (very few) times I've responded to one of these ads, I tell them I'm deaf and can't talk on the phone. Drives 'em crazy.

 

[Dgercp]

Block-chain imo is a very good way to permanently keep track of a watches history including selling prices. This is becoming popular in the fine art world. As far as MWO trying to monetize their knowledge, hey, that's what we all do. The idea of a grading system has been with us for diamonds for a long time. Conceptually I like the idea, but the devil is in the details for sure. Might be most helpful for a big figure watch (as already mentioned), or for those in the market who are not all that knowledgeable about speedies and would rather pay someone else to confirm quality and originality. It's a service I would likely never use personally.

 

[oddboy]

I haven't looked onto this particular service, but with regards to blockchain, who enters the records that form the history of the watch?

For it to work, I'd imagine any watch maker who touches it would have to record an entry. And what's to stop someone from omitting am entry? What about those DIYers who pop the case off to tinker?

I'm all for a (quasi) immutable ledger of the watch's history, but I'd have a lot of questions....

 

[LeonDeBayonne]

Thanks for posting. I really like the idea and the project. In particular (but not only) as it was originated by the 2 authors of Moonwatchonly, who are far more knowledgeable than most merchants .

I got told that the reports that come with the watches (on paper and pdf) will be c.30 pages long and will include all the details about the watch's ratings. I can't wait to see one of them. They will also include watch pics of the same quality as in the book. That plus the ledger really take the watch collecting and buying into a new world, which I must say I like very much.

With regards to ledger consistency I guess that all repairs or mods on the watches will have to be somehow registered with Watchfid (directly or through registered watch repairs boutiques / guys?)

 

[Vintagewtchzilla]

LeonDeBayonne

Thanks for posting. I really like the idea and the project. In particular (but not only) as it was originated by the 2 authors of Moonwatchonly, who are far more knowledgeable than most merchants .

I got told that the reports that come with the watches (on paper and pdf) will be c.30 pages long and will include all the details about the watch's ratings. I can't wait to see one of them. They will also include watch pics of the same quality as in the book. That plus the ledger really take the watch collecting and buying into a new world, which I must say I like very much.

With regards to ledger consistency I guess that all repairs or mods on the watches will have to be somehow registered with Watchfid (directly or through registered watch repairs boutiques / guys?)

yea well .... but this is nothing new e.g. blancpain offers such reports (with all details and before and after service/restore) too AND u get a full service incl.

.... collecting and buying into a new world
as long the rating system has this non objective bonus nobody will take it serious

and why is there no price list for the services ?

atm the whole project leaves more questions open than it should

 

[LeonDeBayonne]

I did not know Blancpain provide blockchain services and 30-page books with the watches that get to their workshops? Can you show any example please?

 

[Vintagewtchzilla]

just to expand your knowledge

https://www.watchcertificate.com/en for the block game

and i didn't say blancpain offers blockchain.

are you one of their investor group ? your advert text sounds like

 

[SpeedyPhill]

Still "WatchbooksOnly" : https://www.instagram.com/watchbooksonly/

http://www.watchfid.com/watchfid-expert-report/

 

[kov]

@LeonDeBayonne I think the question mark is not about the expertise nor the deliverable but about the bias in selling self-graded watches. @Archer nailed it earlier in the thread.

 

[LeonDeBayonne]

Vintagewtchzilla

just to expand your knowledge

https://www.watchcertificate.com/en for the block game

and i didn't say blancpain offers blockchain.

are you one of their investor group ? your advert text sounds like

Why are you so offensive? Like djsomething, it reads like you have a bias against the 2 authors. You do? Anything you wish to share with us?
And no, I am not an investor. Any other assumption?
In the meantime, I am still expecting to see the kind of reports made by Blancpain.

 

[Spacefruit]

I have long wondered how the watch world will bring into being the “Third Party Authenication” (TPA) certificate system that I have watched change my own (retired from!) business, the coloured stone and diamond trade.

Diamond grading is easy – it is about the absence of things. The less flaws, the less colour, the less fluorescence. The finer points, that is the cut, the shape and the polish assessment require a little more skill, but for 95% of diamonds a trained person of average intelligence and high school education following protocols will suffice. Its simplicity in itself - simply hunt for any marks and draw it on a diagram. More marks, lower grade, more colour lower grade. Its like where's Waldo for grown-ups.

GIA has made a global business out of this, massive. They issue certificates and shortly after they started, Martin Rappaport came along with his price lists. (Yes that inspired my Speedmaster price list).

This has resulted in a market where the vast number of 1ct to 10ct diamonds are bought by semi educated retail buyers with some access to the list (as we call the Rappaport Price list). Even though they tried to keep this list secret, a motivated buyer will find it, and now all the have to do is go to BlueNile.com and those prices are so close to wholesale I don’t understand how a jewellery store sells a diamond any more.

Coloured stones are more tricky, but there is still a thriving TPA business. In coloured stones it is all about origin, and heat treatment or lack of it. Unlike diamonds it is NOT qualitative, only an arbitrary judgement made based on comparisons and experience of the people certifying. As an interesting aside, one of the best Labs in the business is Gubelin. However, the lab had to separate from the shop in order to provide independent TPA’s.

Back to watches, well specifically from my point of view, Speedmasters.

I have spent a long time developing a TPA for my own amusement. I have found that I can give each part a grade for Originality, then one for condition.

SO a TPA might look like this (This is something I do for all watches I am considering) :

(EDIT: Forgive the formatting, its much clearer on my own Word document and is in columns and easy to read)


Speedmaster 145.012-67

Extract: Aruba, 29th February 1969

Serial: 2544 3211


Dial Black Original Excellent 5% brown tint

Bezel DO90 Correct Fair Over 10 <1mm marks

Case Asymmetric Original Very Good light polish, no loss of definition

Back Single bevel Original Very Good Undamaged

Movement 321 Original Excellent Service paper June 2020

Hands White Correct Excellent Tritium

Crown 32 Service Excellent

Pushers 5mm Service Excellent

Crystal Hessalite Non Original Very Good No Omega Marking




Now this summary is backed up by a longer three page document detailing the lume state, the hand state, and all other info that enables me to come to my conclusion.


It can be clearly seen that we cannot arrive at a three-word summary like we can with a diamond. For example a 2 carat D colour VVS2 clarity.


But we can get close. In the above example we have a watch with an excellent dial, fair bezel, very good case and excellent movement. So we can take a view and think this watch is largely original, (Correct being as original spec but something makes me think it might have been added) and it is in very good to excellent condition, BUT there is a fair bezel.


So I would be thinking of this as a Very Good watch, in Original condition, which needs down valuing for the fair bezel and the service parts.


To aim to give a watch a single score that communicates ANY meaningful information is, in my opinion, ambitious.


As for blockchain, that’s still too young to be really useful, but it will be. (I speak as a Crypto miner)


AS for TPA. One day Ill refine my work to be useful, but as I said, it’s a hobby


My final thought is that TPA's need to be issued by absolutely independent bodies, and those bodies will have to build up trust. They will also have to have a grading system that makes sense, and easy to understand by anyone.

A body who issues a grade of 10.5 out of 10 for their own watch, one that has noticeable issues, is not in my opinion going to get very far in the TPA business.

Edited: Jun 26, 2020

 

[LeonDeBayonne]

kov

@LeonDeBayonne I think the question mark is not about the expertise nor the deliverable but about the bias in selling self-graded watches. @Archer nailed it earlier in the thread.

I see your point. But one cannot say on one hand that these grades are BS (as I read above from Dj something) and on another hand that they generate a bias. Either they are influential or they are not. As the overall grade is based on each component grading I assume it is quite serious. Maybe they should write more about it.

 

[eugeneandresson]

LeonDeBayonne

With regards to ledger consistency I guess that all repairs or mods on the watches will have to be somehow registered with Watchfid (directly or through registered watch repairs boutiques / guys?)

What about all work done to a watch that is 50+ years old prior to the first 'ledger' entry when it passes these hands (i.e. think vintage Rolex shenanigans)? I am not questioning the integrity or knowledge of these gentlemen, but, most collectors who have invested the time to study up on the matter of the watches they spend their hard earned money and time hunting will have the same/similar skill set to determine perceived originality, condition, attraction etc. and will also in the same breath, due to not being the first owners of all of these watches since day one just like ‘watchfid’, not be able to guarantee anything. This whole process could, theoretically, legitimize 'bastards' so to speak, to unknowledgeable people (which appears to be the target of this service) who take it for what it isn’t: an authentication service that legitimizes a watch and removes any doubt. It would make sense to offer such a service from day 1 (so brand new watches)...but in 50 years when a watch that, today is 50 years old and is now in the ledger system for the first time, is 100 years old...there will still be the same questions about the first half of its life. All IMH2cO

 

[djmusicman]

LeonDeBayonne

I see your point. But one cannot say on one hand that these grades are BS (as I read above from Dj something)

No I said that the bonus points system made me lol.

"Dj something" didn't though, respect man, respect.

 

[kov]

LeonDeBayonne

But one cannot say on one hand that these grades are BS (as I read above from Dj something) and on another hand that they generate a bias.

Why? Do you think the quality of the grading process itself is somehow related to the bias it can introduce in the sales process.

In my opinion there is no link between the two and we can discuss the the grading as we can discuss the bias separately.

 

[Vintagewtchzilla]

LeonDeBayonne

Why are you so offensive? Like djsomething, it reads like you have a bias against the 2 authors. You do? Anything you wish to share with us?
And no, I am not an investor. Any other assumption?
In the meantime, I am still expecting to see the kind of reports made by Blancpain.

i don’t see any offense there but that’s up to you. And no i don’t have any beef with them. Sorry i don’t provide pics or infos of watches i don’t own, so i cannot show you but those who know know that they do a great job. Here you go:
https://www.instagram.com/s/aGlnaGx...t1zi4qpktw&story_media_id=2198818503474641232


@Spacefruit is absolutely right. I couldn’t say better. Period

and yes one CAN say that the grading system is BS just because it is.
Simply the single point of personal taste disqualifies it in any way. For example the tropical speedy. They love it and give it extrapoints and ask for sure a premium. For my taste the dial is beyond tropical so i would rate it negative and deduct the price of a proper black dial. You see everybody can discuss about such things

a Original hand with lost lume is for mostly everyone acceptable a 50% hand.

Edited: Jun 26, 2020