3861 movement broken? *Update: Read First Post*

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You assume it has been done by now on what? On the watch talked about in the WUS thread? The post made by the person was 17 hours ago, so I would be surprised if they had time to get it to Omega and they have taken it apart that quickly. I didn't see anyone in that thread say that watch had been taken apart and the cause confirmed.

No, of course not.
I was thinking about the first watches diagnosed with this issue. I assume that some samples were taken apart to see what the cause is.
 
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You assume it has been done by now on what? On the watch talked about in the WUS thread? The post made by the person was 17 hours ago, so I would be surprised if they had time to get it to Omega and they have taken it apart that quickly. I didn't see anyone in that thread say that watch had been taken apart and the cause confirmed.

Archer,

I think you are taking the concept of “literal” a bit far with these responses. What’s the point?

The 3861 caliber has a defect identified by the manufacturer, remedied by the manufacturer in the sense that parts and procedures are prescribed, and reports of the problem [not specifically identified yet well within the failure category] continue to be posted. Out of a shared interest, these posts get discussed.

Why parse everything? And rhetorically, why wouldn’t owners, potential owners, and others find all of this worthy of discussion and even speculation?

z
 
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Archer,

I think you are taking the concept of “literal” a bit far with these responses. What’s the point?

The concept of "literal" is well known, and often misused today, but that aside I think I explained why already, but I'll quote it here again for you:

One thing to keep in mind when you read these in general, is that many people are "scared" to wind their watches fully for fear of somehow breaking it, and some insist on only winding it once every 2 days, rather than every day. You can find lots of threads here on how to properly wind a watch, and threads where someone complains about a low power reserve only to find that they aren't winding it fully of every day.

Unless you know all the details of how the watch is being used, I would caution jumping to any conclusions. The only way to actually diagnose this as a bushing issue, is to take the watch apart and inspect it.

I have no issues at all with these being discussed, and if people want to take the position that every watch that stops when the chronograph is started is due to this bushing problem, that's your choice. That is not how I personally work though, because speculation isn't something I've found to be helpful in actually ever solving a problem that I've been presented with.
 
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No, of course not.
I was thinking about the first watches diagnosed with this issue. I assume that some samples were taken apart to see what the cause is.

If by samples you mean watches returned after having a problem, then yes certainly.
 
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I have no issues at all with these being discussed, and if people want to take the position that every watch that stops when the chronograph is started is due to this bushing problem, that's your choice. That is not how I personally work though, because speculation isn't something I've found to be helpful in actually ever solving a problem that I've been presented with.[/QUOTE]

Not my stated position.
 
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Not my stated position.

Then I'm not sure what your position is then really. As I said, I'm all for discussing these as you are, and I've not seen anyone suggest that this topic shouldn't be discussed as you seem to imply. That is why I have been an active participant in this and other threads about the 3861, and have tried to provide real documented information (not speculation) about the problem so that people understand what is going on.

What I won't do is assume that every report of a chronograph stopping is automatically this problem, and further ratchet up the concerns that current owners may have without any actual evidence to back it up.


And rhetorically, why wouldn’t owners, potential owners, and others find all of this worthy of discussion and even speculation?

z

Again, if speculation is your thing then feel free, but I won't participate in that.
 
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Holy crap…..

I haven’t been speculating, rather, I asked you several questions and found your answers to be concise. I found other comments to take the form of some degree of speculation, but more along the lines of what I would define as extrapolation. I find that reasonable and conversely, I believe you described it as “losing their shit.” That, in my opinion, wasn’t warranted and found it worthy of inquiring.

It would be a problem for someone repairing mechanical devices such as yourself to practice in confirmation bias, of course. It’s reassuring to read that you don’t.

Consumers, even knowledgeable enthusiasts are typically left with what one finds in threads and conversations in order to determine a course of action, i.e. buy, don’t buy, buy later, etc. Absent a decree from Omega (I’m unaware of such practices) and given the availability of these forums, it seems a bit more reasonable to be - less- critical of what people write or how they write it.

Take it for what it’s worth; that is my position .

Peace.

z
 
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Holy crap…..

I haven’t been speculating, rather, I asked you several questions and found your answers to be concise.

Holy crap back. I’ve not said that you are speculating, but that you are free to do so, and that I will not. I hope this is clear.

Consumers, even knowledgeable enthusiasts are typically left with what one finds in threads and conversations in order to determine a course of action, i.e. buy, don’t buy, buy later, etc.

Agreed, which is why I feel it’s important to stick to facts, and not assume that every failure is automatically the centre wheel issue, at least until there is proper verification of such.

For example the person that goes by “Simon” on WUS, who said he fully wound the watch and started the chronograph, and it stopped the watch in 20 minutes. He tried several times to duplicate the fault, and could not, even when he let the chronograph run for 48 hours. With the information Omega has provided, this is not what I would expect to happen if the problem was the centre wheel issue.

There are several possibilities, such as the watch wasn’t actually fully wound, there was hand interference, or possibly a small bit of debris in the coupling of the chronograph that was dislodged on reset. He returned the watch for a refund, and I suspect we’ll never know what the actual issue is, but it will be counted as a centre wheel failure by all I’m sure.

Doing anything other than sticking to facts is simply feeding the frenzy on this topic, which doesn’t serve anyone very well.

Having dealt with a wide variety of watch people I can tell you that there will be a segment of people who will be “no worries” with this situation, but there will also be a good number who will be highly stressed about this.

Take it for what it’s worth; that’s my position.

Cheers, Al
 
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Sorry, this is an edit after the fact - I’m having some computer issues. Archer, all understood.

Fortunately, Omega is onboard. They have a hard failure and a prescribed remedy.

Cheers,

z
Edited:
 
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If by samples you mean watches returned after having a problem, then yes certainly.
My simple query is; please explain why only certain watches would malfunction or need new bushing, instead of all, when all have exactly same components?
Regards
 
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Sooner or later, all those watches that had not got the modification will have to be seen to.
From S/N so and so up to S/N so and so.

That's the way I see it and that is why I'm against the fact that they're out there on the shelves waiting to be sold.
 
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For what it's worth, when my original faulty 3861 was inspected by Omega, the cause was reported back to me as "Incorrect meshing of some of the chronograph gears". This was relayed to me via the AD manager, who was being informed by the Omega brand manager, who would have received the info from the service department so it's likely not word for word. At the time they told me it was usually fixed with an adjustment, however they were going to replace the components to be safe.
Not sure if that component they were referring to was the bushing or not, as I ended up getting a replacement watch (which, incidentally has been without fault in the six weeks I've had it so far).
 
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Sooner or later, all those watches that had not got the modification will have to be seen to.
From S/N so and so up to S/N so and so.

That's the way I see it and that is why I'm against the fact that they're out there on the shelves waiting to be sold.

Well, yes, eventually all will get seen to, however that doesn't mean all will fail prematurely. The prematurely part is important, and leads into this question...

Pun Pun
My simple query is; please explain why only certain watches would malfunction or need new bushing, instead of all, when all have exactly same components?
Regards

Before I try to answer the question directly, I want you and others reading to think about watches a little differently. Here's the reality - from the day the watch is made and sold, it is in the process of failing. Without intervention the watch will come to a stop in some period of time, and what watch manufacturers do is try to make the mean time to failure as long as possible, and then they set expected service intervals (and to a degree their warranty period) based on that.

Does the fact that the watch stops eventually mean it's a bad design? No, of course not, as nothing lasts forever. The thing that makes it a problem for companies and consumers, is if it fails before it is expected to fail. When I think back to the time when the early 2 level co-axial escapements were causing all kinds of problems with premature stoppage of watches, Omega tried several different approaches to resolve the problem on these escapements. Eventually, they came up with a mitigation strategy that allowed the watch to run long enough that customers didn't see it as a problem. The fundamental issue still remained, and every single one of these that I have serviced has had a build up of sticky residue on the intermediate escape wheel and co-axial wheel, but it hadn't yet reached the point of stopping the watch. As long as Omega could delay this failure to a point where it coincided with other failures in the watch movement, and that was at what people considered a "normal" amount of time, it was effectively solved.

Now to the 3861. When this movement was first made and the first technical guide was released, the oiling of the center wheel bushings was what I would call a normal amount of oil, so the same I would use on any other center wheel, like the 1861. So I can't show the Omega documents, so I'll illustrate what a typical call out for oiling the center wheel on a watch looks like, using the publicly available tech guide for the ETA 6497:



The green arrow I've added points to the oiling instruction for the center wheel. This strange looking symbol tells me how much oil is supposed to be applied to this location. The original 3861 technical guide looked like this, but the later version released looks more like this mock-up I've made:



So now there is much more oil being placed in this location. These technical guides are for after sales service, but also reflect what is happening in the manufacturing process, so if you get a watch that has had the updated oiling procedure, it may take much longer for the issues on the center wheel to materialize. In fact, it may never fail prematurely. This additional oiling, like the mitigation used on the 2500 series calibers, may be enough to extend the service interval of the watch to what is considered normal.

The next question is, why the change in bushing material then? Well, if the root cause is the bushing, then it should be changed, but I will note that even with the new bushing, the instructions to add more oil have not been changed, so it still calls for a lot more oil in this location. Omega doesn't give detailed reasoning for these things, but only practical instructions for how to solve the problems, so it may very well be that the new bushing is something they are doing proactively - only they know for sure.

So it is very possible that some of these will never see this problem at all, or when they do it will be time for servicing anyway.

Cheers, Al
 
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By the way, if anyone has one of these serviced under warranty, and Omega decides to return the old parts to you, please contact me. I would love to do another review of those parts as I did for the shock protection issues that came up a few years ago, as outlined in this thread:

A look at some defective parts | Omega Forums

Cheers, Al
 
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By the way, if anyone has one of these serviced under warranty, and Omega decides to return the old parts to you, please contact me. I would love to do another review of those parts as I did for the shock protection issues that came up a few years ago, as outlined in this thread:

A look at some defective parts | Omega Forums

Cheers, Al

Many thanks for these patient and detailed explanations, @Archer, which help ensure that even those of us who don't own a 3861-based watch learn something.

I had one quick question, which may already have been covered, so apologies in that case. Are these 3861 issues prevalent in all watches that feature this movement, including the various Les, or is it something that seems to have cropped up more recently because the 2021 Speedies are volume sellers where the 45th, Snoopy etc are not?
 
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Many thanks for these patient and detailed explanations, @Archer, which help ensure that even those of us who don't own a 3861-based watch learn something.

I had one quick question, which may already have been covered, so apologies in that case. Are these 3861 issues prevalent in all watches that feature this movement, including the various Les, or is it something that seems to have cropped up more recently because the 2021 Speedies are volume sellers where the 45th, Snoopy etc are not?

As far as I know, it's not specific to any particular model - it's a movement issue.
 
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By the way, if anyone has one of these serviced under warranty, and Omega decides to return the old parts to you, please contact me. I would love to do another review of those parts as I did for the shock protection issues that came up a few years ago, as outlined in this thread:

A look at some defective parts | Omega Forums

Cheers, Al
So it sounds like you have not had the opportunity to repair/service these "problem" 3861 Speedys?

Do you personally have a 3861 that you purchased with your own money?
 
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B Bry
So it sounds like you have not had the opportunity to repair/service these "problem" 3861 Speedys?

No, and considering they are under warranty with Omega for several years to come, that's not surprising. I occasionally have people who would rather send a watch under warranty to me and pay for the service than send it to the brand, but it's not common.

B Bry
Do you personally have a 3861 that you purchased with your own money?

The most modern Omega I own is this one:



1971 Speedmaster Pro, and the second most modern is this, a Seamaster 120 made in 1968:

 
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.....



Before I try to answer the question directly, I want you and others reading to think about watches a little differently. Here's the reality - from the day the watch is made and sold, it is in the process of failing. ....
..........

Cheers, Al

Dear Al,

First of all, thank you very much for your time and patience. You certainly go to great lengths explaining and I for one appreciate and respect you for that!

I've a question simply out of curiosity.
Did ever cal.321 and cal.1861 encounter any issues from the beginning or after some time of use?