1960s Geneve 565 (166.041)

[UNLucky]

I posted this in the Vintage forum as well, but it was recommended I post here as well. So here it is. Sorry for the dupe.

Good afternoon all.
I'm writing this from work, so pictures to follow, but this is my first attempt. I took a big bite and I love it, but I've had a few missed steps and I'm learning as I go.

Here's where I'm at. I have the train of wheels installed and everything is working beautifully, flip it over and install the crown and the gears and go to install the pallet fork and THAT'S where everything goes wrong. before the pallet fork I can use the crown to wind everything up and all the wheels move and it is smooth, once I install the pallet fork, the escape wheel stops moving. I cannot figure out what would be the cause. I will update a picture and maybe a video if I can when I get home tonight, just trying to create the post now to get the ideas flowing.

BLUF: Installed everything up to the pallet fork and works well, pallet fork installed, hangs on the escape wheel.

Look forward to learning with you all! Thank you!

 

[kaplan]

To test the pallet fork I create a thin tentacle from a rodico, and just engage the pallet fork to make sure it works well

You can also remove the train and just install the pallet fork, and verify that it's indeed a spacing problem, mainly the bridge being bent downwards beforehand applying pressure downwards

I think you just need to bend the pallet fork bridge slightly upwards, as it's likely pressing down on the pallet fork and stopping movement

I love original pallet fork bridges and pallet forks, they almost assemble themselves, fit into place with elegance, but once you or someone "plays" with it, it'll never be the same again. An idea is to assemble the bridge alone and correct the spacing when only that bridge is in place, this way you can make sure it keeps it plane geometry

Be careful not to break the pallet fork pivots, the upper one is especially very brittle

 

[JimInOz]

The gear train will not run without the balance installed. You need to simulate the action of the balance wheel by moving the pallet fork.
I use a very fine artist brush to move the tail of the pallet fork left to tight when checking engagement.
It's also handy when applying grease to the pallet jewels.

 

[sheepdoll]

It is really easy to snap the pivots off the fork. This will cause it to not seat correctly. I just did this with a NOS fork, and I was being really careful only aligning it with pegwood.

@Archer says that Omega does not allow the use of Rodico. Compressed air also works.

Same thing with the escape wheel. These can be the most expensive part in the 55x/56x series. The pivots are really small.

This arbor is also sold separate. Sometimes can be found in bestfit assortments. So it must be a known issue.

The part is not difficult to make, but the pivots are really small.

 

[UNLucky]

kaplan

To test the pallet fork I create a thin tentacle from a rodico, and just engage the pallet fork to make sure it works well

You can also remove the train and just install the pallet fork, and verify that it's indeed a spacing problem, mainly the bridge being bent downwards beforehand applying pressure downwards

I think you just need to bend the pallet fork bridge slightly upwards, as it's likely pressing down on the pallet fork and stopping movement

I love original pallet fork bridges and pallet forks, they almost assemble themselves, fit into place with elegance, but once you or someone "plays" with it, it'll never be the same again. An idea is to assemble the bridge alone and correct the spacing when only that bridge is in place, this way you can make sure it keeps it plane geometry

Be careful not to break the pallet fork pivots, the upper one is especially very brittle

I fear I may have done that. I have a replacement part coming but it's being delayed sadly. May order another one. I'll send pictures of the fork, I do think I snapped the upper one. There's a thicker and thinner one, took me a while to realize which was is up and I think learning that, I damaged the fork. I think.

 

[UNLucky]

Best picture I can get under microscope. Doesn't appear that the staffs are broken.

 

[sheepdoll]

Pivots. Staff is the arbor in the center of the balance. The tips which also often break are also called pivots.

Did you check the balance jewels?

A lot of watchmaking is waiting for parts to arrive. Often sent by the cheapest means in the smallest envelopes which have a tendency to get lost in sorting machines.

 

[UNLucky]

sheepdoll

Pivots. Staff is the arbor in the center of the balance. The tips which also often break are also called pivots.

Did you check the balance jewels?

A lot of watchmaking is waiting for parts to arrive. Often sent by the cheapest means in the smallest envelopes which have a tendency to get lost in sorting machines.

I didn't know I could manipulate the jewels. I will research.

Yes I've added a month to this project at least waiting. Like I said I love and hate this.

 

[noless]

after you put in the pallet fork and pallet fork bridge are you installing the balance? because the pallet fork alone will stop the train and allow you to actually put a wind into the mainspring, note make sure to let down the mainspring before you take the pallet fork out, otherwise that sudden release of energy can break parts.

 

[UNLucky]

I'll try that tonight! Thank you!

 

[Archer]

The pallet fork will stop the train - that's it's job. The balance wheel will move the pallet fork so that the escape wheel can turn - that's exactly how it's supposed to work...

 

[UNLucky]

Except it's not. Once pallet fork and balance on on, I can't wind it and the balance starts, then stops. I'm going to try and install everything to the balance and put a wind on it before balance is installed to see if that fixes what I'm seeing.

 

[Archer]

UNLucky

Except it's not. Once pallet fork and balance on on, I can't wind it and the balance starts, then stops. I'm going to try and install everything to the balance and put a wind on it before balance is installed to see if that fixes what I'm seeing.

Yes, put some wind on the movement, and check the pallet fork to see if it snaps back and forth when you nudge it side to side. If it doesn't, then there are likely power transmission issues.

When you install the balance, make sure that you do so in a way that gets the impulse jewel into the pallet fork horns. It should start running almost immediately.

What did you lubricate the escapement with?

 

[noless]

I looked at your other post, can you get a photo of the balance wheel underside? if when the balance rotates the pallet fork isnt moving perhaps your roller jewel is cracked or missing?

 

[UNLucky]

I'll get pictures tonight and try all the suggestions. As for the lubricant, I used the Med viscosity, I dont remember the numbers, the red one. I'll get that info tonight as well after work. I really appreciate all the insight and help!

 

[sheepdoll]

Somewhere I saw that the pallet pivots require no oil. That it actually slows it down.

I use the yellow grease on the escape wheel teeth. I do not do the epilame treatment due to material costs.

Sometimes it helps to assemble just the balance and the pallet fork. Useful when re installing a hairspring so it is roughly in beat. The 55x/56x bridge though makes things hard to see. These also have a moveable pin studding arm.

An air duster such as used on camera lenses is a good tool for checking the freedom of things. I found on the Omega movements with a jeweled center wheel a slight puff of air will spin the wheel.

I recently got 6 of these movements which I am practicing on myself.


Of the 6 there were enough parts to get one complete franken 561 movement to tick.

The parts on the left are bits and pieces from the assortments what do not seem to be Omega. It is amazing what sellers include in junk assortments.

 

[kaplan]

JimInOz

The gear train will not run without the balance installed. You need to simulate the action of the balance wheel by moving the pallet fork.
I use a very fine artist brush to move the tail of the pallet fork left to tight when checking engagement.
It's also handy when applying grease to the pallet jewels.

This is awesome advice, do you also apply 9415 or whatever you use to the escape wheel as well?

-------------------------

As another idea, make sure to check the tip part of the pallet fork as well, the part where the impulse jewel moves, I don't know how it can happen but I had a watch where the bottom tine was bent upwards pressing on the impulse jewel and preventing movement. Probably as a result of an unsuccessful parts swap, these movements are quite awesome and parts are usually interchangeable and usually all parts are original, but rarely you stumble onto modified parts and not being interchangeable, they mess things up

 

[JimInOz]

kaplan

This is awesome advice, do you also apply 9415 or whatever you use to the escape wheel as well?.........................

I use 9415, but only on the pallet jewels as described by Al here.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-oiling-part-4-the-escapement.87072/

 

[noless]

kaplan

This is awesome advice, do you also apply 9415 or whatever you use to the escape wheel as well?

-------------------------

As another idea, make sure to check the tip part of the pallet fork as well, the part where the impulse jewel moves, I don't know how it can happen but I had a watch where the bottom tine was bent upwards pressing on the impulse jewel and preventing movement. Probably as a result of an unsuccessful parts swap, these movements are quite awesome and parts are usually interchangeable and usually all parts are original, but rarely you stumble onto modified parts and not being interchangeable, they mess things up

9415 is for the impulse face of the pallet jewels and the impuls face of thr escape wheel teeth, there are some watchmakers who will oil each tooth of the escape wheel individually, personally i change how i apply the 9415 depending on the movement due to accessibility, but in all cases the correct amount of oil is important.

Japanese manufacturers often call for thin oil instead 9010 or the equivalent, and unlike swiss movements do also ask for a very small amount of light oil for the pallet pivots too, this of course varies from movement to movement and lubrication instructions change over the years... you can start arguments online about the correct way to lubricate due to the differences in how countries have traditionally done things.

 

[UNLucky]

So I have installed pallet fork and balance wheel, I see the escape wheel move a tiny bit, and the balance tries to go, but doesn't keep going. I pull the crown out to wind and only the gears on the bottom move, nothing moves on the face side, to include the mainspring. So I don't think I'm getting any tension to get everything moving? I have a video, not sure how to embed it. I'm using 9104 to lubricate. What else do you all want me to try?