2998 Sold for $23,000 plus the juice

Posts
1,509
Likes
4,744
I like the colour, condition is not ideal but if I had the cash I wouldn't mind it in the collection.
It is good to see any Omega fetch a high price, good for owners anyway 👍


,
 
Posts
4,793
Likes
69,156
Interesting discussions.

As a strong bidder for this watch I can tell you I value these "degraded" dials for their character, and the already worn cases because I can wear them without fear that a single knock will devalue it.

i would rather own the Aq watch than the fine example from Barking Mad. It is a fine watch, but for me, I prefer some character. No offence intended at all, it's a great watch, and I would love to own it as well, I am just making the point if I had to choose.

But that's just me.

except it's not just me, there were at least 4 bidders to 18,000.

No offence taken. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if we all liked the same watch none of us would be able to afford it.

Cheers
 
Posts
29,633
Likes
35,592
As a professional photographer - I suspect what you can see is a degree of pixelation & moiré ....The camera resolution is not sufficiently high enough / the enlargement is too great .......rather than 'cloning' or smoothing,...... or what you might describe as airbrushing.

The harshness of the copy lighting, also suggests that perhaps, there is an element of dichroic colour imbalance......Colour not recording correctly.

If it was retouched.........Trust me, you would not see it, ......unless it was executed by a rank amateur.

However......Having dealt with a couple of International Auction Houses, that possibility of sheer incompetence, certainly exists

Without exception - Every digital image should be raised in contrast / brightness, & also be sharpened - That is not technically retouching, simply an attempt to emulate the precise clarity, & breadth of contrast that film possessed..........Something that digital photography has not yet quite the ability to do.

Yea its known that they photoshop their images, here'a a great example of the same exact Heuer selling three times years apart (pic from onthedash):

 
Posts
277
Likes
64
In two years it went up $21,500.00 in value...Really chaching!
 
Posts
398
Likes
713
Hi all,

Firstly whilst I appreciate a fair amount of patina on a vintage watch as that is what IMHO gives it character too much degradation ruins it for me and of course that is just MO and what I like no one else has to agree or like what I do. So for me that first watch for me irrespective of how rare or unique it is is just of no interest but interestingly Barking Mad's example appeals to me and I would try and buy it if I was into speedies of that era.

dsio

Wow those pictures of the same Heuer Autavia are really shocking I would never of guessed it is the same watch in all 3 pictures and has now put me off ever trying to buy any watch from an auction unless I have been able to view it in person so much for the camera never lies. Also where did the scratch on the bezel by 10 disappear to on the 2nd picture? only to reappear on the 3rd picture? as well as some other marks on the bezel same goes for the lugs that look very different in the 2nd picture to the 1st and 3rd? and the increase in price at the last sale is insane as I've seen much better examples of those Heurer's even recently sell for a quarter of that price.

Marc
 
Posts
6,589
Likes
11,270
Interesting discussions.

As a strong bidder for this watch I can tell you I value these "degraded" dials for their character, and the already worn cases because I can wear them without fear that a single knock will devalue it.

i would rather own the Aq watch than the fine example from Barking Mad. It is a fine watch, but for me, I prefer some character. No offence intended at all, it's a great watch, and I would love to own it as well, I am just making the point if I had to choose.

But that's just me.

except it's not just me, there were at least 4 bidders to 18,000.

The nicer example will be worth more - you can beat it up and age it to look like the AQ example but you cant transform the beat up example into a nicer piece. I certainly respect your willingness to pay big money for this but the nicer example with a better preserved tropical dial will be worth even more money.

.
 
Posts
5,261
Likes
24,010
I appreciate the underlying concepts of the mantra of condition condition condition when collecting watches, or indeed many other things. However I feel we are entering a new era, where an alternate condition is attracting a new kind of collector.

This rapidly rising group seeks a certain kind of wear, degradation, or age related decay, and is becoming valued by enough people to ensure they push values well above expectations.

It is clear that there are very few individuals who value both, to the same extent that one person will actually pay top money for an example of each. I have noticed particular derision heaped upon the high prices paid for brown, or patinated dials as in the case of this watch, lot 84 Antiquorum in New York - but other degraded dials attract similar vitriol. And not without foundation. It is after all a damaged watch.

The thing is, despite being strongly disparaged, the watches exhibiting a pleasing degradation continue to fetch high premiums over watches with a similar degree, but not quality, of degradation.

So first I conclude that there are several people who like them, and second that they have deep pockets.

I notice that degradation per se is not a guarantee of a high price. Clearly the buyers need to see a certain but definite charm. Some, while exhibiting the same degree of decay, do so in an unattractive manner. It is this difference that I find so interesting, and that the "triple C" group do not see at all.

I note also that this phenomena, the high value placed on degradation, is compared to Rolex. So far, I am not so sure it is the same. In Rolex, the brown dials are very much more than their "CCC" counterparts. With speedmasters, imagine how much a NOS 2998-1 might fetch? I would say there are many bidders up to $25,000, and i believe is worth more than this watch - a lot more. It is after all much rarer. There are several on this forum who have shown similar decayed watches, but only one who has shown a NOS.

A NOS speedmaster is unwearable. (Certainly for me, I am active and inadvertently careless on occasion.) I still want one, and would pay more than a brown dialed one.

A watch with an already marked case is easy to wear without worry. And for me, if the dial is attractive, I find myself looking at it endlessly.

My wife wants to test me for OCD
 
Posts
477
Likes
1,320
These luxury item auctions are the perfect venue for daddy warbucks pissing contests. These guys love to flaunt their buying prowess to the point where in the heat of the moment it's more about the win then the actual goods.
 
Posts
641
Likes
1,239
Some very interesting and considered points you make there Spacefruit.
Especially as you have stated that you were a strong bidder on this watch.

I hope "we" aren't scaring off these "deep pocketed lovers of degradation" with our swift judgement of auctions like these.
It would certainly be interesting to hear opinions and bidding motivation from these buyers.

I wonder if they do frequent here or if they are getting "investment advice" from elsewhere.
 
Posts
5,753
Likes
2,935
We have vintage Rolex collector bunch in Jakarta, whom one is a good friend of mine. They now feel that Newman's, Subs and early GMTs are overpriced for their liking. Now they are eyeing early Speedies (2915 and 2998). Enough said.

This is picture of their last 6 persons gtg.
 
Posts
2,617
Likes
5,599
The jig is up, fellas.

I was casually watching CNBC the other day and some stock jockey (I actually know the guy) was recommending that people of means invest 10% of their assets in collectibles like fine art and vintage watches.

When stock hustlers are telling people to buy watches (and not stocks) you know there's a lot of buzz going on.
 
Posts
394
Likes
97
These examples show different lighting, and consequent variations in colour rendering. The missing marks on the bezel could be, relatively speaking, 'innocent' and a result of indifferent photography, rather than any great plan on their part. Not that I'm trying to come to their defence… but auction houses often have in house guys, under tremendous time pressure. Or they outsource the work on a price/piece basis and believe me, they don't pay much.

While they should be using and paying for top photography, they're more concerned with their own ROI; it's not Watch Time magazine, selling watch porn to enthusiasts, it's a more brutal world.

With respect, I don't think these images prove your point, but they do highlight the journey of the watch up and down the economic ladder. Interesting stuff.

Yea its known that they photoshop their images, here'a a great example of the same exact Heuer selling three times years apart (pic from onthedash):

77690
 
Posts
2,617
Likes
5,599
I'm not a photographer so I have no idea how the knurling on the bezel just magically disappears, reappears and then disappears.

More interesting to me is that the least visually appealing photo (It's my taste and I'm entitled to it) fetched the highest price by a mile. That has to mean something.


These examples show different lighting, and consequent variations in colour rendering. The missing marks on the bezel could be, relatively speaking, 'innocent' and a result of indifferent photography, rather than any great plan on their part. Not that I'm trying to come to their defence… but auction houses often have in house guys, under tremendous time pressure. Or they outsource the work on a price/piece basis and believe me, they don't pay much.

While they should be using and paying for top photography, they're more concerned with their own ROI; it's not Watch Time magazine, selling watch porn to enthusiasts, it's a more brutal world.

With respect, I don't think these images prove your point, but they do highlight the journey of the watch up and down the economic ladder. Interesting stuff.
 
Posts
394
Likes
97
I'm not a photographer so I have no idea how the knurling on the bezel just magically disappears, reappears and then disappears.

More interesting to me is that the least visually appealing photo (It's my taste and I'm entitled to it) fetched the highest price by a mile. That has to mean something.


The middle bezel seems to have been enhanced in the pictures here, but a small change in angle and lighting could just as easily make the other two appear to fall away. In short, we are not looking at great photography here, and my point was simply that it doesn't prove retouching, just mildly incompetent work. I'd have to see the actual watch to have an opinion, myself.

The disappearing bezel edges in the other shots appear to be nothing more than the lug highlights blowing out the knurling. Like I say, we'd really have to see the watch to know, the photography in all three is nothing special. Done to a price, not to a standard, or as they say in the business nowadays it's 'good enough.'

That one picture is linked to a higher price is more coincidental than evidence of the influence of these particular picture on the buyers in the room. We've all seen saleroom madness (…and then there's shill bidding…) and the internet has, if anything, fuelled this madness.
 
Posts
394
Likes
97
The jig is up, fellas.

I was casually watching CNBC the other day and some stock jockey (I actually know the guy) was recommending that people of means invest 10% of their assets in collectibles like fine art and vintage watches.

When stock hustlers are telling people to buy watches (and not stocks) you know there's a lot of buzz going on.

We all know that watches (at least that's what we tell The Other Person in our lives…I'm thinking about the bank manager, of course) are a great investment, that's why we're here! 😀
 
Posts
661
Likes
576
I think the speedy looks really tired. In that condition I would only wear it for sentimental reasons.
There's patina and there's just plain worn out. I wouldn't call the dial tropical I would term this sun bleached.
 
Posts
10
Likes
2
I made the comment to someone the other day that if I were to part with mine it would not be for anything under 16K. Obviously a rethink is necessary😁

I am the "someone" 😀...
I was indeed asking the community here what they thought of this particular example, a couple of weeks before the auction.
I was actually looking at it as my first forray into Speedmasters, being a Vintage Rolex collector for quite some time already.
I finally settled for a tropical 145.022 in very nice condition from KRLYUZH instead and am very glad I did so.
Obviously not the same ballpark as this one, but when I see the non-catalog picture of the 2998, it looks pretty much beaten up to me.
I agree (for being one of them) that Rolex tropical junkies are pushing prices to new heights on rare tropical Speedmaster references.
And there is still quite a margin, when you see that lot 86 in this very same auction (Rolex Daytona 6263 with tropical chocolate dial) went for more than 87k$ including buyers premium...
Then again, I completely agree with MSNWatch, condition, condition, condition, being Vintage Rolex or Vintage Omega.
I'd rather settle for a perfect 145.022 than for a beaten up 2998-2
 
Posts
2,617
Likes
5,599
I realize it's all produced but Rick Harrison bought one of these for like 8 grand off some guy who wanted to buy a dirt bike with his dads watch money. Awesome display of white trash right there! As I recall, it was a full set (sans original bracelet).

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my white trash comment but com'on! ...a dirt bike? Lolzzz. Didn't someone here buy a watch off a kid who wanted a dirt bike as well?

reminds me of that old Lancashire proverb: "Clogs to clogs on 3 generations"

signed,

citizen white trash