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Zenith Aircraft Carrier Clock - the Cairelli Roulette
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LouS
··Mrs Nataf's Other Sonless effective as a sector clock
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JimInOz
··Melbourne Australia
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LouS
··Mrs Nataf's Other SonThe gelato hypothesis is looking more and more plausible....
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JimInOz
··Melbourne Australia
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LouS
··Mrs Nataf's Other SonThat's mine
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JimInOz
··Melbourne Australia
And a bit more on this particular clock.
I see that it has also baffled many learned collectors (and some familiar names in there too).
https://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=34239594
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Darlinboy
··Pratts! Will I B******S!!!And a bit more on this particular clock.
I see that it has also baffled many learned collectors (and some familiar names in there too).
https://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=34239594
Given that thread is ten years old, progress has been glacial in sussing out this clock’s use!
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Foo2rama
··Nowhere near as grumpy as he used to be...Well, I combed through Fiat BR20 cockpit photos, I can confirm that the clock was not there, it is noted on the orologi forum that it was in that plane.
http://www.aircraft-reports.com/fiat-aviazione-2/?sort=featured&page=3
links to 3-5 manuals but I'm not shelling out money for them...
Problem with it being a carrier clock... the BR20 was just pre war.. and Italy never made a carrier untill 1983 with the Giuseppe Garibaldi. Additionally Italian Battleships in WWII do not appear to have had spotting aircraft on them, like the US played with pre WWII. I went through a list of all Italian WWII and earlier aircraft and I do not see any that would have been mounted on ships...
So I think its use on a carrier can be debunked.
It appears that the only record that states it was from the BR.20 was the zenith book by Manfred Rossler on page 297.
Interesting piece...notice the inserts are not designed to be removed on this one and it is signed A Car....
What if these are not military models... are they marked with normal Itailian military markings (note bomb timers are not marked apparently)? Perhaps they where for Factory shifts... or denoting something else?
http://www.aircraft-reports.com/fiat-aviazione-2/?sort=featured&page=3
links to 3-5 manuals but I'm not shelling out money for them...
Problem with it being a carrier clock... the BR20 was just pre war.. and Italy never made a carrier untill 1983 with the Giuseppe Garibaldi. Additionally Italian Battleships in WWII do not appear to have had spotting aircraft on them, like the US played with pre WWII. I went through a list of all Italian WWII and earlier aircraft and I do not see any that would have been mounted on ships...
So I think its use on a carrier can be debunked.
It appears that the only record that states it was from the BR.20 was the zenith book by Manfred Rossler on page 297.
Interesting piece...notice the inserts are not designed to be removed on this one and it is signed A Car....
What if these are not military models... are they marked with normal Itailian military markings (note bomb timers are not marked apparently)? Perhaps they where for Factory shifts... or denoting something else?
Edited:
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river rat
·Well, I combed through Fiat BR20 cockpit photos, I can confirm that the clock was not there, it is noted on the orologi forum that it was in that plane.
http://www.aircraft-reports.com/fiat-aviazione-2/?sort=featured&page=3
links to 3-5 manuals but I'm not shelling out money for them...
Problem with it being a carrier clock... the BR20 was just pre war.. and Italy never made a carrier untill 1983 with the Giuseppe Garibaldi. Additionally Italian Battleships in WWII do not appear to have had spotting aircraft on them, like the US played with pre WWII. I went through a list of all Italian WWII and earlier aircraft and I do not see any that would have been mounted on ships...
So I think its use on a carrier can be debunked.
It appears that the only record that states it was from the BR.20 was the zenith book by Manfred Rossler on page 297.
Interesting piece...notice the inserts are not designed to be removed on this one and it is signed A Car....
What if these are not military models... are they marked with normal Itailian military markings (note bomb timers are not marked apparently)? Perhaps they where for Factory shifts... or denoting something else?
This one looks civilian and I am starting to think they all are maybe a fancy car clock. Most Navy clocks and watches for the Italian Navy are marked with (Istituto Idrografico Reginia Marina) for (Royal Navy Hydrographical Institute) from 1940-1945 and my Lemania I posted has (Istituto Idrografico Della Marina) for Navy Hydrographic Institute after WW2 during the 1950's marked on the dial. And the Zenith dial should be marked on the dial. Any one try to contact Zenith archives with a photo of it and they mite give us the answer.
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LouS
··Mrs Nataf's Other SonThat zodiac clock is someone's idea of fun. Note that the chips are not the originals - they do not have the little indentation that allows them to be easily removed.
plenty of precedent for Italian military clocks, esp aircraft, with only Cairelli's name on the dial.
this from a Macchi C.202 cockpit
plenty of precedent for Italian military clocks, esp aircraft, with only Cairelli's name on the dial.
this from a Macchi C.202 cockpit
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Foo2rama
··Nowhere near as grumpy as he used to be...That zodiac clock is someone's idea of fun. Note that the chips are not the originals - they do not have the little indentation that allows them to be easily removed.
plenty of precedent for Italian military clocks, esp aircraft, with only Cairelli's name on the dial.
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LouS
··Mrs Nataf's Other SonItaly never made a carrier untill 1983 with the Giuseppe Garibaldi.
Italy made two carriers in WW2. They were never completed. Didn't stop the Italians from developing and producing carrier capable aircraft for them. Mind you, I'm not convinced it is an aircraft carrier clock, but Clocks seems relatively little trouble in comparison to fighter aircraft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_aircraft_carrier_Aquila
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_aircraft_carrier_Sparviero
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Foo2rama
··Nowhere near as grumpy as he used to be...what, the zodiac chips? Well, the lack of the indentation, like I said. You find them on all of the others, yet you think these are the original ones?
neither of those carriers was even completed, one never left the dry dock, the other never had planes on it as it never neared completion of the conversion.
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LouS
··Mrs Nataf's Other SonMy point is the assumption that it is not original is unfounded... Since none of these seem to have military markings its inconclusive. There is only one reference that these where on that Airplane, and I can assure you that there was not one in the cockpit. My point is that there is no proof it even was military.
neither of those carriers was even completed, one never left the dry dock, the other never had planes on it as it never neared completion of the conversion.
You are welcome to be a logician, but it there was easily findable positive evidence - for or against - the issue would have been solved by now and the discussion would be over.
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Foo2rama
··Nowhere near as grumpy as he used to be...You are welcome to be a logician, but it there was easily findable positive evidence, the issue would have been solved by now and the discussion would be over.
Hey I respect you a lot. My point is nothing at all can be assumed on these. No proof they are even military at this point as they are missing markings, but as noted not all military pieces had markings like the bomb timers. I can’t find the reference talking about them on aircraft carriers so I’m not sure where that came from, but does seem untrue noting the Italians never got one completed. Being on a BR.20 bomber seems to be tracked to a book, but I don’t see it in the cockpit. It may have been near the Bombardier station but it doesn’t make sense to be there. I also couldn’t find it in the gunner stations.
A Carrali made civilian pieces, has anyone dated these with the zenith serial numbers.
There is also another example out there that just has the frame and not the backing piece with the ball bearing clips. As that appears to be 1 piece I’m sure that one may be like the zodiac one and had 12 chips attached. Alas there is no back shot of the zodiac to see if it had the clips or not.
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river rat
·If this was a Navy clock it would of been a clock mounted to the bulkhead of a ship. When they design a clock for aircraft smaller size is better due to the flight instruments take up space with those colored plates would of took up space in the control panel for less flight instruments that are more important.
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river rat
·That zodiac clock is someone's idea of fun. Note that the chips are not the originals - they do not have the little indentation that allows them to be easily removed.
plenty of precedent for Italian military clocks, esp aircraft, with only Cairelli's name on the dial.
this from a Macchi C.202 cockpit
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CaptainWinsor
·That zodiac clock is someone's idea of fun. Note that the chips are not the originals - they do not have the little indentation that allows them to be easily removed.
plenty of precedent for Italian military clocks, esp aircraft, with only Cairelli's name on the dial.
this from a Macchi C.202 cockpit
Is that an ME 109 in the background?