Zenith A271 Research

Tony C. · Dec 17, 2020

preacher
where did you see that I say that the caliber 146 is better or worse than others?

The reason that I reacted as I did is because when people (not only you) say things like this:

at that time Zenith was the only company that produced chronographs with proprietary movements, the others used third-party movements (lemania, valjoux ...)

there is an implication that in-house movements are not only preferable to collectors, but somehow superior to the "third-party" movements. Perhaps that is not what you meant to convey, but it is, I suspect, what most readers would infer from that type of quote.

I can fully understand a preference for a less common model, movement, dial variation, etc., but when you say this:

I consider a watch equipped with its own movement to be better than a watch equipped with a movement that I can find on a dozen other watches

I would say that confusion is again created. I am being a bit pedantic, but "better" refers to quality, so I suspect that you mean "preferable", which is subjective. A less common movement is not necessarily better than a more common one, though it may well be preferable to some collectors.

Dan S · Dec 17, 2020

In my mind, a Zenith cal 146 is only nominally "in-house". It's a Martel movement, made in a Martel factory that was acquired by Zenith. So you can call it in-house if you want since that's technically true, and if you like the watch for that reason, that's your prerogative. But I don't think that most collectors get terribly excited about cal 146 chronographs for that particular reason, certainly I don't. The chronographs are very nice, and stand on their own merits.

fibonacci · Dec 17, 2020

sliceoftime_

👍

preacher · Dec 17, 2020

Tony C.
I would say that confusion is again created. I am being a bit pedantic, but "better" refers to quality, so I suspect that you mean "preferable", which is subjective. A less common movement is not necessarily better than a more common one, though it may well be preferable to some collectors.

Here I’m totally agree with you! Damn my english

Dan S
In my mind, a Zenith cal 146 is only nominally "in-house". It's a Martel movement, made in a Martel factory that was acquired by Zenith. So you can call it in-house if you want since that's technically true, but I don't think that most collectors get terribly excited about it for that reason. The chronographs are very nice, and stand on their own merits.

here I do not agree, Martel and Zenith were 2 neighboring and interdependent companies, in 1959 they merged.caliber 146 was subsequently implemented 2 times. to say that at the end of the 1960s it was a supply caliber is equivalent to saying that the el primero caliber was also supplied (it was designed and produced in the former Martel factories).not only that, according to this theory, the 25x2 calibers that mounted Zenith watches from the first half of the 1960s would also be supplied.

Dan S · Dec 17, 2020

preacher
here I do not agree, Martel and Zenith were 2 neighboring and interdependent companies, in 1959 they merged.

It sounds like you actually do agree with me. The only difference between us is that for some reason you place more value on the fact that Zenith uses a former Martel movement in their 1960s chronographs. If you want to consider it an in-house movement, that's fine. And I previously mentioned that it is technically true, so again we agree.

However, IMO it's not comparable to in-house movements designed and developed by manufacturers, such as an Angelus 215 or a Longines 13ZN/30CH, for example. Not that there is necessarily any substantial difference in quality. But for most people who like to collect watches with true in-house calibers, there is a big difference.

If you would like to repeat once again that you feel the 146 is an in-house movement, be my guest. Technically it's true.

Tony C. · Dec 17, 2020

preacher
Here I’m totally agree with you! Damn my english

Don't worry, your English is probably superior to my Portuguese, and I live in Portugal! 😁

preacher · Dec 17, 2020

Dan S
If you would like to repeat once again that you feel the 146 is an in-house movement

I'm boring, but not that boring😁. the beauty of collecting ancient things is the fact that we give different evaluations! I'm still glad you like these chrono too

Tony C.
Don't worry, your English is probably superior to my Portuguese, and I live in Portugal!

mi inglish is much bitter tan yours ::facepalm1::

DanT · Dec 17, 2020

preacher
Here I’m totally agree with you! Damn my english

here I do not agree, Martel and Zenith were 2 neighboring and interdependent companies, in 1959 they merged.caliber 146 was subsequently implemented 2 times. to say that at the end of the 1960s it was a supply caliber is equivalent to saying that the el primero caliber was also supplied (it was designed and produced in the former Martel factories).not only that, according to this theory, the 25x2 calibers that mounted Zenith watches from the first half of the 1960s would also be supplied.

Thanks @preacher, I was hoping this thread would throw up some insights from knowledgeable members, so its been great to read yours and others contributions

DanT · Dec 17, 2020

Dan S
It sounds like you actually do agree with me. The only difference between us is that for some reason you place more value on the fact that Zenith uses a former Martel movement in their 1960s chronographs. If you want to consider it an in-house movement, that's fine. And I previously mentioned that it is technically true, so again we agree.

However, IMO it's not comparable to in-house movements designed and developed by manufacturers, such as an Angelus 215 or a Longines 13ZN/30CH, for example. Not that there is necessarily any substantial difference in quality. But for most people who like to collect watches with true in-house calibers, there is a big difference.

If you would like to repeat once again that you feel the 146 is an in-house movement, be my guest. Technically it's true.

Very interesting contribution, thanks. There are as you probably know (contested) threads elsewhere discussing how many of UG's 'in house' movements were in fact supplied by Martel.
https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/a-short-history-of-martel-watch-co-and-zenith-chronographs.660565
But you have answered one of my questions at the start of this thread ie is the 146 considered a notable chronograph movement? If its descended from the UG285, perhaps it might be considered on a par with Valjoux 72? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what would be considered the pantheon of manual wind chronographs - 13ZN/30CH, Angelus etc. Would this list include mostly proprietary 'in house' movements or ones developed by specialists like Lemania, Venus/Valjoux etc that supplied to a range of manufacturers?

Dan S · Dec 17, 2020

DanT
But you have answered one of my questions at the start of this thread ie is the 146 considered a notable chronograph movement? If its descended from the UG285, perhaps it might be considered on a par with Valjoux 72? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what would be considered the pantheon of manual wind chronographs - 13ZN/30CH, Angelus etc. Would this list include mostly proprietary 'in house' movements or ones developed by specialists like Lemania, Venus/Valjoux etc that supplied to a range of manufacturers?

Certainly I think that the cal 146 is a top-notch column wheel caliber. I don't really know how to rank these movements, since they each have various pros and cons. And in any case, I think a general discussion of vintage column wheel movements would probably be a topic for a separate thread.

Tony C. · Dec 17, 2020

I would add that chronographs are a distinct category in the context of this discussion, given that some of the very best of them were based on calibers produced by specialists such as Valjoux and Lemania. In other words, given the quality of chronographs that were finished "in-house" by various manufacturers, but that were based on calibers manufactured by one of those two companies, including the likes of Patek Philippe, it is difficult to imagine any qualitative superiority intrinsic to any fully in-house movements.

Perhaps the Movado M95, with its modular design, is an exception? Are there others?

DanT · Dec 17, 2020

@Dan S and @Tony C.
Sorry you're right this might be off topic on the A271 and worthy of another thread. Fascinating though.

DanT · Dec 17, 2020

sliceoftime_
I really find these A27X models really awesome and so underrated. The quality of the watch is sublime. Here's mine, with an added Yugaslavian Air Force one with the same movement.

I think I may have spied that Yugoslav military piece on the private watch sales?? Its fantastic. Thanks for your pics superb

DanT · Dec 17, 2020

Risto
I had this A273.
Different style seconds hand.

Is that your photography? Stunning example

CaptainWinsor · Dec 17, 2020

This is why I collect the Zenith bumpers. 🍿

DanT · Dec 19, 2020

Thanks to all who contributed to the thread, I enjoyed reading all your comments.
If anyone has any ideas on production numbers on this reference - I've read somewhere they were limited to a few thousand - i'd be grateful for any insights.
Cheers
Dan

DanT · Dec 20, 2020

One more observation to add - my A271 service history was unspecified, so I'll need to sort that. But I'm amazed at its timekeeping. The late '60s 146 movement is outperforming my 1978 Speedy, which has been serviced recently. So Martel is outperforming the 861 so far....

preacher · Dec 21, 2020

preacher
caliber 146 is one of the best ever produced, who owns it knows what I'm talking about.

As I said...
However, have it checked by your trusted watchmaker

DanT · Dec 21, 2020

preacher
As I said...
However, have it checked by your trusted watchmaker

Good advice - not sure if its a good or bad sign, but the 'ticking' sound of the movement (the sound of the balance wheel oscillating I presume) is so much more audible than any of my Omegas. This might be the thinner case - but its a wonderful sound

preacher · Dec 22, 2020

DanT
Good advice - not sure if its a good or bad sign, but the 'ticking' sound of the movement (the sound of the balance wheel oscillating I presume) is so much more audible than any of my Omegas. This might be the thinner case - but its a wonderful sound

it is one of the features of the 146, I think it depends on the large balance wheel, as you said it also depends on the simple case, your a271 is not a professional watch. my a278 has a case similar to yours and the ticking is very audible, on my a277 it is less audible.
among the things you will appreciate are a good power reserve, the accuracy of both the watch and the chronograph, and great reliability.
some time ago I bought a 146 which had been in a drawer for about 30 years and it worked fine!
The only drawback is that the movement is usually not very refined, although the quality of the materials is at the top.
your 146dp is the latest and most up-to-date version, it has a plat spiral, all the regulating organ is revised for greater precision, micrometric screw adjustment, different shaped balance bridge, glucydur balance wheel without adjustment screws

Zenith A271 Research

Tony C.

Dan S

fibonacci

preacher

Dan S

Tony C.

preacher

DanT

DanT

Dan S

Tony C.

DanT

DanT

DanT

CaptainWinsor

DanT

DanT

preacher

DanT

preacher

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