Will redialed watches always continue to be frowned upon...

watchknut · Jun 30, 2017

What is better? This...

or a proper redial?

While I will search for a correct dial and handset, I think it makes sense to get his 35.5mm 3t back to a presentable state.

Found a local guy that does dials, creates the artwork and dies for each dial. Will see how he does. Has to be better than the current state.

Larry S · Jun 30, 2017

R3D9
The issue for me is that if a watch has been redialled, the part that most generally attracts me to a watch (the dial) wasn't created by the original manufacture, but rather by someone else.

Unless that someone else is a uniquely gifted or even famous/special artisan in their own right, the watch loses all of its appeal to me as a watch from that particular brand.

Using the car analogy. I don't think I'd be interested in paying nearly the same money for a 60's E-Type whose engine and chassis was all-original, but whose exterior sheet metal had been completely redone, unless said redo was completely and utterly indistinguishable from the original... which is generally not the case.

Inevitably, the new sheet metal won't possess the same magic as the original. It'll be off, somehow... just as with the vast majority of redials I've ever encountered.

For the watches that I know well, there is always a sort of uncanny valley effect when looking at a redial.

It doesn't mean watches with a redial don't have value or merit or a place in one's collection. It just means that I will always pay a significant multiple for the correct model over the original.

My two cents.

If the watch was a PP, VC or JLC with a factory refinished dial, how would you view it?

R3D9 · Jun 30, 2017

Larry S
If the watch was a PP, VC or JLC with a factory refinished dial, how would you view it?

Factory refinished? To me, the refinished watch is still wholly a PP, VC or JLC, just in some ways newer and lesser. It's a decent step below the original but definitively above a non-OEM intervention.

I've seen a few Patek factory refurbs (online, not in the metal) and they appeared to be very well done.

Perhaps that line of thinking makes my overall position structurally weaker. It's just that value is all subjective and highly personal, I suppose. Maybe there is no real way to be the most correct in this debate? Only time (and the market) will tell, but it sure is fun to speculate 😀

For me, I would be infinitely happier owning a watch that was refurbished by the original manufacturer vs. a non-OEM redialler. I concede the redialler could very well be more talented than the Patek watchmaker, but for reasons not properly supported by logic, I'd rather own the watch refinished by the original manufacturer.

R3D9 · Jun 30, 2017

watchknut
What is better? This...

or a proper redial?

While I will search for a correct dial and handset, I think it makes sense to get his 35.5mm 3t back to a presentable state.

Found a local guy that does dials, creates the artwork and dies for each dial. Will see how he does. Has to be better than the current state.

I'd definitely support a redial in this instance because what has been done to it isn't very attractive.

The overall design and unique case are very appealing and this will be a great piece once finished.

With regards to the discussion at hand, how much more would you have been willing to pay if the dial was original and attractive?

gatorcpa · Jun 30, 2017

For American watch collectors, a proper redial is considered OK, or at least better than an original in poor condition. This is only because it was and still is fairly easy to have one done. International Dial uses many of the original dies from the 1920's and replicates the Baker finish on Hamilton silver dials.

Redials that don't look at all as original are discounted there as much as they are in the Swiss watch collecting world.
gatorcpa

jumpingsecond · Jul 1, 2017

watchknut
What is better? This...

or a proper redial?

While I will search for a correct dial and handset, I think it makes sense to get his 35.5mm 3t back to a presentable state.

Found a local guy that does dials, creates the artwork and dies for each dial. Will see how he does. Has to be better than the current state.

+1 for redial. It'll gain in collectibility/wearability!

jumpingsecond · Jul 1, 2017

R3D9
Perhaps that line of thinking makes my overall position structurally weaker. It's just that value is all subjective and highly personal, I suppose. Maybe there is no real way to be the most correct in this debate? Only time (and the market) will tell, but it sure is fun to speculate 😀

We'll run an experiment. Once I hit my 200 post mark I'll put my 30t2rg up for sale @ the price of this somewhat recent sale of a 30t2rg of similar bloodlines: https://shop.hodinkee.com/products/...-2364-with-30t2rg-caliber?variant=38175984463

As far as I can tell this one is indisputably original. If mine sells we have +1 for Redial. If not we'll have +1 for Original!

gatorcpa · Jul 1, 2017

And what makes you think the linked watch actually sold for the listed price?😗
gatorcpa

Wibbles · Jul 1, 2017

gatorcpa
And what makes you think the linked watch actually sold for the listed price?😗
gatorcpa

Never mind the major "value" premiums associated with that particular outfit. And no movement shot. Again. Totally different and naive/ignorant[delete as applicable] market.

jumpingsecond · Jul 1, 2017

gatorcpa
And what makes you think the linked watch actually sold for the listed price?😗
gatorcpa

Not sure, never purchased from them. I just saw the list price. Do they allow you to make offers too? Either way we can find an acceptable benchmark then roll the dice!

R3D9 · Jul 1, 2017

jumpingsecond
Not sure, never purchased from them. I just saw the list price. Do they allow you to make offers too? Either way we can find an acceptable benchmark then roll the dice!

A quick aside... if you have a track record elsewhere, you can contact the mods directly and request being able to sell on the forum prior to 200 posts.

Gstp · Jul 1, 2017

R3D9
I'd rather own the watch refinished by the original manufacturer.

Are you sure PP, VC, JLC and lesser brands like Omega did make their own dials? I would have thought this was outsourced and hence made by different providers specializing in dial production. So in most cases you can't go back to the "original manufacturer"

If I'm wrong I would like to get some knowledge on how the swiss manufacturers did this in 40-70s and if different brands had different ways of doing this.

gatorcpa · Jul 1, 2017

Gstp
Are you sure PP, VC, JLC and lesser brands like Omega did make their own dials? I would have thought this was outsourced and hence made by different providers specializing in dial production. So in most cases you can't go back to the "original manufacturer"

If I'm wrong I would like to get some knowledge on how the swiss manufacturers did this in 40-70s and if different brands had different ways of doing this.

You are correct.

However, the higher end brands supply their contractors with original dial dies where possible.

There was a (former) member here who had a Jaeger-LeCoultre restored at the factory. The dial was beyond salvaging, so they had it redone.

Stunning workmanship. Cost of the overhaul and dial restore was somewhere around $1,500 to $2,000.

You get what you pay for.
gatorcpa

Gstp · Jul 1, 2017

gatorcpa
You are correct.

However, the higher end brands supply their contractors with original dial dies where possible.

There was a (former) member here who had a Jaeger-LeCoultre restored at the factory. The dial was beyond salvaging, so they had it redone.

Stunning workmanship. Cost of the overhaul and dial restore was somewhere around $1,500 to $2,000.

You get what you pay for.
gatorcpa

Thanks. So, for the high end brands, it will depend whether they still have the dial dies for your model and if you're willing to pay.

And for Omegas will it be just another re-dial even if its part of a restoration at Bienne?

Mouse_at_Large · Jul 1, 2017

In my opinion, the market, and particular segments of the market will dictate the acceptability or otherwise of the condition and originality of a watch, but only with regard to that segment.

For example, and based on my observation, this forum and in particular this subforum, is biased towards the “collector” attitude where originality is one of the primary factors in determining a watch’s desirability. Originality and a tolerance, or indeed a desire for consistent and “honest” signs of ageing and use can add to the attraction and indeed the value of a particular watch.

On the other hand, and I’d suggest this group is vastly more numerous than the “collectors”, there is a market for watches that look like new. Obviously brand new watches fill part of this demand, but there must exist a segment of the watch buying public who are not overly concerned about “collector” criteria and simply want a watch that they consider aesthetically pleasing and don’t particularly care about history or originality. If these buyers did not exist, there would be no reason to refinish/refurbish or redial and nobody would buy them. I don’t adhere to the suggestion that these are only bought by the ignorant who have not been properly educated in the aesthetics of vintage watches. For some people, patina is a complete turnoff, and I’d bet you’d have a hard time convincing the average watch owner that a beat up bezel that happens to have a small dot in a particular position relative to 90 is worth $$$$$ 😉

Now, as the “Worst Redials” thread shows, there are some horrible examples out there, but on the other hand, there are some redials (perhaps only a small proportion of the total) that show a level of craftsmanship and skill matching or perhaps even exceeding the detail and finish of the original. Even at the slightly less highly skilled end of the spectrum, there are examples of redials that, whilst they may be unacceptable to a “collector” will be bought, worn and give enjoyment to a buyer.

I don’t look down on such buyers or owners as dupes or as sometimes contemptuously referred to as the “Oooh - shiny” market. Without these buyers, I guess a lot of older watches would end up in rubbish tips.

gatorcpa · Jul 1, 2017

Gstp
And for Omegas will it be just another re-dial even if its part of a restoration at Bienne?

You have to look at this in terms of an individual watch as opposed to a whole marketplace.

If the dial is totally trashed, then it will be worth more with a redial than it was before. A purist collector would not be interested in that piece with or without a redial, unless the model is very rare.
gatorcpa

Gstp · Jul 1, 2017

gatorcpa
You have to look at this in terms of an individual watch as opposed to a whole marketplace.

If the dial is totally trashed, then it will be worth more with a redial than it was before. A purist collector would not be interested in that piece with or without a redial, unless the model is very rare.
gatorcpa

Ok, a slight misunderstanding here, I was not wondering about "worth" in connection with redials vs originals and collectors vs non collectors at all

I just wondered if Omega has the original dial dies or not for vintage pieces? I guess not maybe, they did outsource the dial production didn't they?

jumpingsecond · Jul 1, 2017

R3D9
A quick aside... if you have a track record elsewhere, you can contact the mods directly and request being able to sell on the forum prior to 200 posts.

thx for the info. not in a rush to try its fate so don't mind waiting..

DON · Jul 1, 2017

Most manufactures had sub contractors who did dials for them and other smaller companies. In recent years. Larger companies have been buying up smaller contractors to make sure they get custom parts as needed on time and to prevent other manufactures from buying them.

Usually the gentleman's rule was that the subcontractors still get to do the work for other small customers and not abandon them.

My dial refinisher retired a number of years ago. He was one of the reasons I stopped restoring as I never found anyone that did the same quality as he did. He did it for close to 50 years. Sold the business and tutored the buyer, but still 50% of his quality. OK work from what I've seen, but not enough for him to do any of my dials.

DON

gatorcpa · Jul 1, 2017

Gstp
I just wondered if Omega has the original dial dies or not for vintage pieces? I guess not maybe, they did outsource the dial production didn't they?

The issue with Omega and most of the Swiss manufacturers is that because they made so many different styles of watch, they used many different subcontractors. Most of them are out of business or absorbed by other companies (see DON's post above). Over the last 80+ years, you can imagine all the stuff that has gotten thrown out, lost, destroyed by fire, etc.

Here in the US, things were far more standardized. Not as many contractors or different finishes on dials. Some companies did work for more than one US manufacturer. Also, after WWII, US watch companies started outsourcing production to Switzerland. Those watches suffer from the same dial refinish issues as the more well known Swiss companies.

It is difficult to get a good redial on any dial produced after 1950, IMO.
gatorcpa