compared to original unrefinished dials that have suffered significant aging? I'm not talking tropical dials or light patina but rather dials that are unrecognizable as to what brand it is. It's virtually impossible to find vintage cars without some form of exterior restoration because collectors prefer an aesthetically pleasing vehicle instead of its rusted faded original state. The same environmental elements also damage watch dials although at slower rates if properly maintained. We're already seeing certain watch references that are near impossible to find without some form of redial. Will there be a point where a quality redial is preferred over the few worn out originals?

 

Already seeing it with Longines 13zn with retouched or redials hammmering for stupid money. My view is that the hierarchy is : original dials, factory service dials, factory refinished dials( only from manufacturers like PP, VC and JLC that take it very seriously) then good redials. A rare case and movement with a finely done redial is still a redial but in the case of a rare enough bird ... who knows?

 

Jack Forster shared some thoughts on this subject on HODINKEE last year (sort of): https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/aged-watch-dials-good-investment-or-ticking-time-bomb

It's a short editorial and one that seems to be pretty controversial (people see it as Hodinkee using their influence to prime the market to accept redials I guess), but I agree with some of what he's saying. Personally, I don't see the point in purchasing a redialed watch -- I like vintage well enough, but I'd rather just buy new if I can't find a nice original example of something. However I do think that once the supply of original examples dries up, or dials that weren't kept in temperature/humidity controlled environments start to deteriorate, the market will start to accept small bits of restoration for vintage watches, just the same as with vintage cars. Longines 13zn is a really good example as @Larry S said, with Universal somewhat heading in that direction as well.

 

Yep

Why would you need to buy redials plenty of 50+ year old watches with great dials just got too be patient

(Both sellers pic,s who doesn't play here anymore )

 

isnt this a redial in the Hodinkee shop?

https://shop.hodinkee.com/collectio...erence-2850sc-for-the-melbourne-olympic-games

 

How the hell does the third photo declare sharp case when it's the same case as my SS one above ( gold does get a discount for being a softer material but come on )

 

If the original dial is so far gone to be near unrecognisable and a replacement NOS or used can't be found, then IMHO yes. If it keeps an old watch going. I had to get a family piece redialled back in the 90's. The original radium had pretty much obliterated the dial and was giving off scary levels of radiation*, so it was either a redial or leave it in a lead box never to see the light of day.

Caveat: selling a watch and claiming it's original is not on at all.

We often forget that people in the past often weren't nearly so precious about this and got their dials "cleaned", i.e. redialled. I remember when I was younger seeing notices in jewellers and watchmakers advertising this very service. And this was in the 1980's. I particularly remember because my dad was adamant he didn't want this done on one of his Longines as he preferred the ageing.


*radium lume can be extremely hygroscopic and sucks up water like a thirsty camel, which further threatens the dial. And as it breaks down the binder material and radium goes to powder and gets dragged into the movement. Such movements can show as pretty "hot" to a Geiger counter. Then there's the potential health issues... My dopey head is bad enough without mutations up a second one.

 

This is really interesting. I think it depends on the buyer. In majority cases this 30t2rg looks better than the originals that are rarely available. I think it depends how much you care about having an indisputably original watch, or an indisputably beautiful watch to wear.

 

Regarding OP premise, I think just the opposite. I think the worn original dials will become more valuable over time and the redials less and less valuable as more and more of them appear. For me a redial remains one that I want to bury in my backyard. Hey, you gotta be snobby about some things in life

 

This is absolutely stunning! Who did the work?

 

I wish I knew how it came to be. I've been trying to figure out this mystery since I received it. According to this post: https://omegaforums.net/threads/the-perfect-vintage-omega.3613/#post-41523
could be from some 'Israeli dealer" at the Munich Watch Fair many years ago...

Perhaps some intrepid reforger understanding the demand went to great lengths to create these?? If I ever find out for certain I'll be sure to post.

 

Almost looks like a factory refinish. Such a beautiful watch!

 

IMHO as the supply of original dialed watches gets dried up good re-dials will appreciate in time.

My favorite collecting theme is 30 T2 chronometers - maybe 1 out of 20 showing up on ebay have their original dial regardless of their condition...
A good condition dial is even rarer of course...
So I think a perfectly done re-dial will appreciate over time at least on these watches.

And there are these dials of unknown origin for these chronometers. They are nearly perfect in appearance and only the expert knows the tiny differences between the originals.

I am pretty confident that watches with these dials will command similar prices to the original ones in the future.
Like this one presented before in this very thread



These dials could be found lose even on ebay several years ago but have disappeared completely now.
It seems that all of them have been installed in watches already.

I think they are of great value and not much less than an original

 

Yes, I tend to agree with Erich. Important watches, no matter what they are, would command more with a good quality redial as opposed to a damaged, indecipherable dial, but not as much as an original dial in good condition. You see this phenomenon in auction houses particularly during early Patek auctions where a quality refinished dial will be acceptable owing to the rarity/collectability of the piece.

When we move along to production watches, I still think originality is king, and a dial with attractive patina would be more collectible than a redial. There's a guy in Israel I'm aware of who uses CAD to design replica dials (for quite a fat fee) and I'm just hoping he never perfects a Connie dial, mainly because he has a bit of a dark, roguish side

I think Forster's warning about the volatility of the vintage watch market is pretty astute. I know of collectors who just don't bother with early Rolexes any more because of the number of fakes, put-togethers and frankens that have flooded the market. As soon as trust dissipates in any specific market line the next thing to take a hit is values. I fear this may happen with early Speedies.

 

It could well do M. A few years ago after I'd flipped a few watches I'd had for years at a good return, I was looking to get into a vintage Seamaster 300 and what in the end put me off were the scary number of fakes and frankens and talk of "stubbies" and I didn't trust myself to get a correct one. Any that were correct from respected sellers were way above baseline values. That's the other thing that can happen with heavily faked and frankened models, the true blue without doubt ones leap in value(though some of them can be dubious too). It's a minefield really and worse it's getting with ever more previously minority interest watches getting mainstream attention. The fakers are even copying 30 quid plastic Casios and the like.

So far I've avoided ending up with a fake/franken, but that was as much down to me latterly going more for oddball stuff. 1) they were cheaper so less a target(even a brand like Longines were in that bracket until relatively recently) and 2) harder to fake(try faking say a Beta 21 or Ultraquartz movement. Not a hope).

 

I heard many years ago of a German father/daughter replicating the old dials. Seen a number of watches with these dials that are just too clean

Not sure of this one as there's a miss at the 58 minute mark

DON

 

I still think applying the vintage car market is a good analogy for the evolution of vintage watch market . Both share a similar customer base- predominantly men with significant discretionary income seeking to purchase an item whose utilitarian lifespan has long since passed. People who purchase '55 Chevrolets and vintage watches don't buy them to commute to work or tell time, respectively, but rather for predominantly pleasure. Just like the vintage car market relies heavily (often solely) on aftermarket parts and restoration so will the vintage watch collectors eventually have to rely on aftermarket parts and restorations including redials as original parts become scarcer.

 

The issue for me is that if a watch has been redialled, the part that most generally attracts me to a watch (the dial) wasn't created by the original manufacture, but rather by someone else.

Unless that someone else is a uniquely gifted or even famous/special artisan in their own right, the watch loses all of its appeal to me as a watch from that particular brand.

Using the car analogy. I don't think I'd be interested in paying nearly the same money for a 60's E-Type whose engine and chassis was all-original, but whose exterior sheet metal had been completely redone, unless said redo was completely and utterly indistinguishable from the original... which is generally not the case.

Inevitably, the new sheet metal won't possess the same magic as the original. It'll be off, somehow... just as with the vast majority of redials I've ever encountered.

For the watches that I know well, there is always a sort of uncanny valley effect when looking at a redial.

It doesn't mean watches with a redial don't have value or merit or a place in one's collection. It just means that I will always pay a significant multiple for the correct model over the original.

My two cents.

 

Let's ask a vintage car collector what percentage of their car is factory original. I speculate that the older the car the less of it is composed of original components. Yet vintage car collecting continues to thrive. Why are we to assume that the same dynamics won't be inevitable for vintage watches? Of course we all desire original dials (just like the purist car collector prefers the original sheet metal/paint) but how sustainable is this?

 

That's a very fair point.

I used the E-Type as my example for a specific reason. It's the sheetmetal - the form, the curves, the lines of that car - that make it exceptional.

I'd argue the same is true with dials on watches. The font, the precise placement of objects on the dial, the aged quality of the lume plots, the texture of the dial... It's what you see first every time you look at the watch. It's what makes you fall in love with it. It's inescapable.

A dial is one whole part on its own, which is why I compare it to 100% of the exterior sheet metal of a classic car. Both are intrinsic to what defines them as a particular object of desire.

To be sure, most vintage cars have had multiple parts replaced, but a full re-build of the exterior of the car would reduce the value of an E-Type by an order of magnitude vs. one that possesses all-original sheet metal. Of that, I'm certain.

It's a flawed comparison, is suppose, given that cars' exteriors are exposed to potential damage from day 1 and thus I expect the percentage of all-original condition examples is proportionally much lower to the dials on watches.

That said, ask a vintage car collector what their car would be worth after having been re-built because a write-off-level accident.

I'd argue a redial of a watch is tantamount to admitting its time to write a particular watch off... you see this on the forums all the time as owners wrestle with the notion of "to redial or not to redial." Almost all are loathe to alter the dials of their watches.

That said, an assertion that a rising tide raises all boats is certainly valid and the value of re-dials will rise over time, as do all collectible objects.

I just don't think the increase in value of re-dials will not come close to matching the trajectory of original pieces.