Why are high-end service intervals so short?

Alex Cheers · Jul 14, 2021

So I am new to this and just had my first watch serviced. Talked a little bit to the watchmaker and he said for watches with full case backs (like Rolex) service intervals are like 8 to 10 years. For watches with display backs it is 4 to 5 years. Reason is something like the oil dyring or degenerate faster (not sure if that was exactly how he said it) due to the light coming in... I did show him my 1970 Speedmaster Mark II on which I added a display caseback and his recommendation was to pay someone for some nice macro shots of the caliber and put the full caseback on again. That would be cheaper than having it serviced twice instead of once in ten years...

Premaster · Jul 14, 2021

Maybe another conspiracy theory...

ConElPueblo · Jul 14, 2021

Alex Cheers
So I am new to this and just had my first watch serviced. Talked a little bit to the watchmaker and he said for watches with full case backs (like Rolex) service intervals are like 8 to 10 years. For watches with display backs it is 4 to 5 years. Reason is something like the oil dyring or degenerate faster (not sure if that was exactly how he said it) due to the light coming in... I did show him my 1970 Speedmaster Mark II on which I added a display caseback and his recommendation was to pay someone for some nice macro shots of the caliber and put the full caseback on again. That would be cheaper than having it serviced twice instead of once in ten years...

...the light pasing through the wrist and into the watch? Has the taste of nonsense to me, sorry

tubeamps · Jul 14, 2021

I serviced my Rolex OP at the twenty year mark, it still kept good time as a daily wear but the gasket at the crown was visibly deteriorating which is what prompted the service.
That was eleven years ago, still running like the energizer bunny.

Archer · Jul 14, 2021

Dan S
OK, I hope you are sitting down, because this sure gave me a shock:
https://www.rolex.com/watch-care-and-service/faq.html

Yes, things have certainly changed since I wrote that post back in 2014...😗

Dan S · Jul 14, 2021

Archer
Yes, things have certainly changed since I wrote that post back in 2014...😗

Haha, you got me. 😁

Geezer · Jul 15, 2021

I fully agree with Acher's comments from 2014. 😀 I just wanted to add a few thoughts.

How to explain the difference in the recommended service interval? Hmmm. Lets look at the movement.

First of all, why does a mechanical movement need to be serviced? In very general terms, the reason a mechanical movement needs a standard service is because oil dries over time and this will increase wear and friction. This can in turn affect how much energy arrives at the balance wheel. And in the users experience, this can result in a diminished power reserve and bad timing results.

By far the most sensitive part when it comes to lubrication is the escapement, and this happens to be the component where the oil disappears the quickest (sometimes less than 3 years). I would say that oil in other places (such as the jewel bearings) can stay in place quite a bit longer due to capillary action.

Not all mechanical movements are affected equally by wear or oil drying. Workhorses such as Rolex movements, which use strong mainsprings and heavy balance wheels, tend to suffer less when the lubrication is not optimal, as they will keep on ticking anyway (while wear does in fact occur). Smaller and thinner movements that use weaker mainsprings and lighter balance wheels can be more sensitive to wear, and this can result in a movement needing a service sooner rather than later. Movements by PP, AP and VC tend to be thinner on average.

Note that what I have written above, does not take into account self-winding mechanisms (or complications) that are also especially sensitive to wear and failure caused by wear.

When it comes to the manufacturer, it is for the company to decide how much wear is acceptable before the recommended service interval. I would say that for large manufacturers, many components that wear will be an automatic replacement when the watch is serviced. Therefore, there is less effort to prevent wear. If wear prevention would be the goal, they would probably shorten the recommended interval.

So should a movement be serviced before components run dry and before they start to wear significantly? Or should a movement be serviced when this will have a real life affect on the performance?

So there is an argument to be made for some watches to be serviced in 3-5 years, and for some watches to be serviced in 10 years.

Regarding service costs; for a service where each individual component is invoiced, it might make more sense to prevent wear to reduce the bill. However, for companies that include the replacement of components in the service (like many do), it does make sense to wear the watch as long as it keeps on working well.

Most companies such as Rolex, Omega, Patek Philippe or AP, make a whole range of movements with very different characteristics. If you would want to be very scientific about it, it would be very hard to recommend the same service interval for the entire range of movements, and it would also depend on the final objective (wear prevention or postponing service). To Quote Archer before "the situation is different for different watches."

I hope this adds something to the dicussion.

Alex Cheers · Jul 15, 2021

ConElPueblo
...the light pasing through the wrist and into the watch? Has the taste of nonsense to me, sorry

Well no not through the wrist... More like that little bit because your watch sits not totally firm on your wrist or because you admire your movement for hours and hours 😜 or let's think skeleton watches... but I am totally fine with that if there is no relevant effect on the oil aging by that...

Premaster · Jul 15, 2021

Geezer
To Quote Archer before "the situation is different for different watches."

...and different wearing habits. Just an addition.

Archer · Jul 15, 2021

Geezer
First of all, why does a mechanical movement need to be serviced? In very general terms, the reason a mechanical movement needs a standard service is because oil dries over time and this will increase wear and friction. This can in turn affect how much energy arrives at the balance wheel. And in the users experience, this can result in a diminished power reserve and bad timing results.

By far the most sensitive part when it comes to lubrication is the escapement, and this happens to be the component where the oil disappears the quickest (sometimes less than 3 years). I would say that oil in other places (such as the jewel bearings) can stay in place quite a bit longer due to capillary action.

Do you work on watches at all? Just curious.

On the quoted sections, I would say "yes, sort of."

Modern oils tend to dry and leave very little residue behind, unlike the older natural oils. I have seen many watches come to my shop for servicing that were completely dry inside, and yet to the wearer there would be zero indication that there was anything wrong inside.

Here's an example I posted about some years ago - I'm wearing that watch as I type this BTW:

If my watch keeps time well, does that mean it doesn't need service? | Omega Forums

By the time the watch wearer notices anything, the damage will already have been done. Older natural oils will gum up and cause the movement to stop, typically before any real damage is done, but they don't last as long.

Your comment about oils disappearing on the escapement first, and in such a short time, directly conflicts with my experience and any training I've been given at school or by watch brands. I'm not sure what type of oil you are referring to though, because in fact the escapement is typically oiled with a thixotropic grease/oil - Moebius 9415. It is excellent at staying in place over longer periods of time, because until it is under load it has the consistency of grease, and liquifies under pressure. Now if you were to go old school and actually use oil on the escapement, something like 9010, then yes what you have described would be more likely.

Cheers, Al

MTROIS · Jul 15, 2021

Archer
I call shenanigans on that one. 45 years is a long time, and unless it was not being used for the majority of those 45 years, I suspect it has been serviced if it's still running.

I think one of our other forum members is due to meet with him soon, so I'll see if he would be willing to ask about this specifically.

Cheers, Al

Interestingly, I inherited a plain vanilla Speedy Moonwatch from 1980... and it is still running strong despite never having been serviced in 41 years (it still has the "red dot" on the case back and I have no reason to believe that it was ever serviced by the original owner -OO-).
Based on all battle-scars of the watch, I know that it has been used, but I do not know exactly how often (may be OO was just rough on his tool watch).
I do understand that it is way overdue for a service, but I'd rather keep it "as is" for now despite: https://omegaforums.net/threads/if-...-does-that-mean-it-doesnt-need-service.20475/

DaveK · Jul 15, 2021

ConElPueblo
...the light pasing through the wrist and into the watch? Has the taste of nonsense to me, sorry

Rado63 · Jul 15, 2021

Archer
Yes, things have certainly changed since I wrote that post back in 2014...😗

Things have changed but to me your take away message is still the same as it was in 2014. Usage, Case construction, case back and crown design will be different from watch to watch and hence service intervals could be different. Rolex watches all have a minimum water resistance 100M while the Cellini is 50M. Today a new Speedmaster is only 50M water resistant. Rolex says the interval depends on the model and the usage:
"It is recommended to service your Rolex approximately every 10 years depending on the model and real-life usage." Which means @Archer is still correct and Rolex doesn't specify what model or what real life usage would change the recommendation to less than 10 years. I suppose they mean Cellini's would be a watch that is an exception, and real life usage means you actually wear the watch not a watch sitting never worn, locked in a safe.

MTROIS · Jul 15, 2021

Rado63
Things have changed but to me your take away message is still the same as it was in 2014. Usage, Case construction, case back and crown design will be different from watch to watch and hence service intervals could be different. Rolex watches all have a minimum water resistance 100M while the Cellini is 50M. Today a new Speedmaster is only 50M water resistant. Rolex says the interval depends on the model and the usage:
"It is recommended to service your Rolex approximately every 10 years depending on the model and real-life usage." Which means @Archer is still correct and Rolex doesn't specify what model or what real life usage would change the recommendation to less than 10 years. I suppose they mean Cellini's would be a watch that is an exception, and real life usage means you actually wear the watch not a watch sitting never worn, locked in a safe.

I was actually wondering if it is indeed the case that a watch not worn at all will need less service than a watch regularly worn.
In essence, is it a bit similar to a car that is never driven and which gaskets and other rubber lines will dry out (in this case all the oils and greases will age prematurely without any shear stress or friction), or not at all, and a watch left untouched for several years will perform just like the day it was put down?

Archer · Jul 15, 2021

MTROIS
Interestingly, I inherited a plain vanilla Speedy Moonwatch from 1980... and it is still running strong despite never have been serviced in 41 years (it still has the "red dot" on the case back and I have no reason to believe that it was ever serviced by the original owner -OO-).
Based on all battle-scars of the watch, I know that it has been used, but I do not know exactly how often (may be OO was just rough on his tool watch).
I do understand that it is way overdue for a service, but I'd rather keep it "as is" for now despite: https://omegaforums.net/threads/if-...-does-that-mean-it-doesnt-need-service.20475/

Certainly it wouldn't have been used every day if it's still running, at least not based on what I've seen with heavily worn and "never serviced" watches, where the wear on major parts is so dramatic that there's just no way it will run any longer...this old Tissot comes to mind - wear on the barrel bridge where the barrel arbor goes through:

Wear in the main plate where the barrel arbor goes through:

I replaced the barrel bridge as I could find one, but the main plate was difficult to find, so I bored out the worn hole and installed a bushing to repair it:

I regularly install bushing in the barrel/wheel train bridge of Speedmasters where the barrel arbor rides for this same kind of wear. This is even on modern 1861's that aren't anywhere near as old as your watch is, but are already showing excessive wear there from lack of servicing.

Regarding the red dot, I don't take that as any sort of indication, and I never have. First, the dot is simply red model paint, so easy enough to duplicate should someone want to. Second, I have had watches arrive in my shop with the red dot intact, that have been previously serviced. I've seen the dot split in two when the case is opened, and if you torque it right back to the same place, you would never know it's been opened.

Of course family history is another thing, and is sometimes, shall we say, of dubious accuracy when it comes to small details like this than span decades. But who know, maybe yours is a biblical level miracle. 😉

Cheers, Al

sonicosa · Jul 15, 2021

MTROIS
Interestingly, I inherited a plain vanilla Speedy Moonwatch from 1980... and it is still running strong despite never having been serviced in 41 years (it still has the "red dot" on the case back and I have no reason to believe that it was ever serviced by the original owner -OO-).
Based on all battle-scars of the watch, I know that it has been used, but I do not know exactly how often (may be OO was just rough on his tool watch).
I do understand that it is way overdue for a service, but I'd rather keep it "as is" for now despite: https://omegaforums.net/threads/if-...-does-that-mean-it-doesnt-need-service.20475/

Birth year watch for me, but it still catches me off guard for a second that a watch from 1980 is 41 years old. Maybe my brain trying to protect me from contemplating my mortality.

Starting to feel like I'm overdue for a service as well, come to think of it.

MTROIS · Jul 15, 2021

sonicosa
Birth year watch for me, but it still catches me off guard for a second that a watch from 1980 is 41 years old. Maybe my brain trying to protect me from contemplating my mortality.

Starting to feel like I'm overdue for a service as well, come to think of it.

I know the feeling too well… 🤔

Mediocre · Jul 15, 2021

I just assumed it was to encourage constant revenue flow back to the OE's 😁

Evitzee · Jul 15, 2021

When Breguet was asked if he could build the perfect timekeeper he replied, "Show me the perfect oil and I'll build the perfect watch". Oils are a lot better now, but the bottom line is the same.

Geezer · Jul 15, 2021

Hi Archer,

I am a watchmaker, although in recent years I teach at a Swiss watchmaking school with some restoration work on the side.

You are right about modern oils leaving very little residue, and I should probably have used the term "disappearing" instead of "drying" of oils.

My watchmaking experience is somewhat biased towards relatively delicate and thin high-end movements. Like the JLC 920 (or VC, AP or PP versions), movements such as the Patek 240, F. Piguet movements etc. In recent years I have worked on ETA products, and these are very different animals. A lot of these movements can run dry without any clear performance issues.

My experience from yours is a bit different regarding the disappearing of escapement oil. Even with the use of epilames, I have encountered certain high end movements that were running without oil on the escapement after only a few years (and sometimes barely out of warranty). Of course, it is very difficult to determine clear reasons for this, and this is still pretty anecdotal, so I will leave it at that.

Oil retention on the escapement has been much improved with epilame coatings and improved lubricants such as 9415 grease, however it is still a weak spot relatively speaking. In recent years, many watch companies have invested in silicium escapements as they have the potential of being oil-free. Although to be fair this might be as much a marketing exercise. Although not really a new idea, Seiko has been using escapement wheels with improved teeth design (tiered tips) for oil retention:

The escapement continues to be a component where oiling can be very crucial for achieving an acceptable amplitude and good performance.

As a sidenote, I have always found it somewhat interesting that many so called oil-free escapements such as the Co-Axial, or silicium escapements such as the PP Pulsomax, continue to be oiled in production or during service. I guess the little friction there is, still does damage. Maybe you can shed more light on this, as I have little experience with the Co-Axial escapement myself.

Thanks to the link to your post about your Speedmaster. I think it well highlights how the informed perspective of a watchmaker is quite different from the normal users experience.

Thanks for the discussion!

Archer
Do you work on watches at all? Just curious.

On the quoted sections, I would say "yes, sort of."

Modern oils tend to dry and leave very little residue behind, unlike the older natural oils. I have seen many watches come to my shop for servicing that were completely dry inside, and yet to the wearer there would be zero indication that there was anything wrong inside.

Here's an example I posted about some years ago - I'm wearing that watch as I type this BTW:

If my watch keeps time well, does that mean it doesn't need service? | Omega Forums

By the time the watch wearer notices anything, the damage will already have been done. Older natural oils will gum up and cause the movement to stop, typically before any real damage is done, but they don't last as long.

Your comment about oils disappearing on the escapement first, and in such a short time, directly conflicts with my experience and any training I've been given at school or by watch brands. I'm not sure what type of oil you are referring to though, because in fact the escapement is typically oiled with a thixotropic grease/oil - Moebius 9415. It is excellent at staying in place over longer periods of time, because until it is under load it has the consistency of grease, and liquifies under pressure. Now if you were to go old school and actually use oil on the escapement, something like 9010, then yes what you have described would be more likely.

Cheers, Al

Why are high-end service intervals so short?

Alex Cheers

Premaster

ConElPueblo

tubeamps

Archer

Dan S

Geezer

Alex Cheers

Premaster

Archer

MTROIS

DaveK

Rado63

MTROIS

Archer

sonicosa

MTROIS

Mediocre

Evitzee

Geezer

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